Ithaca Hawken??

[jim mclemore]

I just bought a Ithaca 50 cal, it is my first muzzle loader

I read that Ithaca merged with Cherry Corners

My question is what is it worth? It appears to be very good condition

I also bought a 54 Umberti in the same shape, I figgered for $150 each it was a deal

They take number 11 size caps??

Thanks.

 

[hawkeye2]

Your picture is going up on the Post Office wall and there's a reward too. That wasn't a deal it was theft. Yes they take #11 caps.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Did you have a gun pointed at the fellow that "GAVE" you the guns?
I would not speak to loudly about your acquisition here, because there are police officers who visit this site.
You got one unbelievable deal. For a first time muzzle loader you did very well.
Now tell us the barrels did not come with the sale! Or something like that?
Congratulations on your great purchase!
Fred

 

[will5a1]

Go buy a lottery ticket while you've got the good luck.

I think you mean a "Uberti", if it is a rifle, a search here will produce some excellent info from Phil Meek on both rifles.

Edit to add Phil's excellent info, hope the link works:

http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/

 

[Grenadier1758]

Yes, they should use #11 caps. You may need new nipples.

The Ithaca Hawken had a pretty long lineage. IIRC it started off as Western Arms then Ithaca. Navy Arms was involved somewhere in the history. They are one of the most faithful reproductions of the J a s S Hawken Plains rifle. When the rifles were first being produced, the most authentic lock was made by Cherry Corners. It is a pretty good lock. It is now out of production.

One more piece of need to know information is that the bore was designed to J and S Hawken specifications. While it states that it is a 54 caliber rifle, that is a bit misleading. The groove depth is 0.540" so the land to land diameter is 0.530". A 0.526" or 0.520" ball is required.

You got a great price for those rifles.

 

[robinsroost]

You have the right to remain silent, you have the right to have an attorney present before any questions, if you like and you got one hell of a deal...…….

 

[jim mclemore]

I just bought a Ithaca 50 cal, it is my first muzzle loader

I read that Ithaca merged with Cherry Corners

My question is what is it worth? It appears to be very good condition

I also bought a 54 Umberti in the same shape, I figgered for $150 each it was a deal

They take number 11 size caps??

Thanks.

Thanks guys, any idea what they are worth??

 

[plmeek]

I just bought a Ithaca 50 cal, it is my first muzzle loader

My question is what is it worth? It appears to be very good condition

I also bought a 54 Umberti in the same shape, I figgered for $150 each it was a deal

They take number 11 size caps??

Thanks.

Jim,

You got one of your questions answered and maybe a part of your other question answered by implying that you made out like a bandit on the deal. But just how many years of incarceration are you facing?

Going through my notes of recent sales of Ithaca Hawken rifles, I noted two auctions on Gunbroker. There likely have been more, but these are the two I noticed.

• 11/26/17 Sales Price $665
• 03/14/19 Sales Price $730

These are for factory finished rifles. Ithaca sold a number of Hawken rifles as kits. These are usually valued at a few hundred dollars less than factory finished depending on the ability of the person who finished them and the quality of finish.

I haven't been tracking the prices on the Uberti Hawken rifles in a while, but they used to sell between $500 and $600 depending on condition.

You may have read the details about the companies on my website that will5a1 posted on Uberti's Santa Fe Hawken or at this link on the Ithaca Hawken. Just to summarize for those of us that CRS when we IIRC:

Cherry Corners was the predecessor. It was started by Bud Brown in the 1960s as one of the earliest companies to offer Hawken parts. In the middle of the Hawken craze, the demand for his parts got to be too much for Bud Brown and he put his company up for sale in 1976. Ithaca Gun Co. purchased the business and began producing the Ithaca Hawken by the start of 1977. After about 18 months, Ithaca Gun Co. sold the Hawken line to Navy Arms who continued to produce the American made rifle until the mid- to late-1980s at which time they started importing the Uberti rifle and called it the Ithaca/Navy Hawken.

Western Arms Corp. of Santa Fe collaborated with A. Uberti & Co. of Italy in the production of the Santa Fe Hawken. Leonard Allen of Western Arms Corp. sent either a custom Hawken built with Cherry Corners parts or one of the first Ithaca Hawken rifles to Uberti as a prototype to copy. If you take the locks off your two rifles and look closely at the internals you can clearly see the similarities. The snail of the breech plugs are also similar.

The Ithaca Hawken is not an exact copy of a particular Hawken rifle, but is representative of a S. Hawken rifle. Leonard Allen and A. Uberti & Co. tried to get a copy of a true J&S Hawken rifle into production, but it never made it.

The Ithaca Hawken was made in .50 caliber only. Navy Arms added a .54 caliber version after they bought the business.

It is the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken that Grenadier1758 was thinking of when he wrote, "While it states that it is a 54 caliber rifle, that is a bit misleading...the land to land diameter is 0.530". A 0.526" or 0.520" ball is required."

 

[jim mclemore]

Thanks for all the help.

For the 54 I should start with .53 size balls??

And the 50 try 490 balls , of course depending on thickness of the patching

Sorry for hall the newbie questions

On Western Arms co. I heard Whichester filed suit as western was Winchesters trade mark.

Allen renamed his company to Allen Arms

I have a Western Arms copy of a Whinchester 1973 In 44 40

 

[Zonie]

Yes. Use a .530 or .535 diameter roundball in the .54 and a .490 or .495 ball in the .50.

The patch thickness should be somewhere between .015 and .020. Many of us have found that a .018 thick patch made from pillow ticking works well in all of the muzzleloading rifles but you have to experiment with different patch thicknesses and ball sizes to find out which ones will produce the best accuracy.

Each gun will have its own favorite.

My .50's seem to like powder loads between 60 and 70 grains. The .54's like something around .75 to 80 grains.

Some hunters like to use larger powder loads and there is often a load that works well in the guns but for most hunting either of the loads I mentioned will be more than enough to drop a deer.

 

[plmeek]

Yes. Use a .530 or .535 diameter roundball in the .54 and a .490 or .495 ball in the .50.

What Zonie is saying is true for .54 calibers in general, but not true for Uberti Santa Fe Hawkens in particular. They are actually .53 caliber and use a .526" or .520" ball.

And yes, Olin Industries filed a trade mark infringement suit against Western Arms Corp. because they owned the rights to Winchester Western line of ammunition. Leonard Allen had to shutdown Western Arms Corp. and formed a new company by the name of Allen Firearms Co. which continued until the late 1980s. You find a lot of Uberti Hawken rifles with the Western Arms Corp. stamp on them and a few with the Allen Firearms Co. stamp. Eventually, Log Cabin Shop, Track of the Wolf, Cimarron Arms Co., and other importers sold Uberti Hawken rifles.

How is yours marked?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Listen to Phil. You might find it prudent to measure the bore before you buy a few boxes of ball. I remember one case of a fellow with a new, just out of the box Santa Fe Hawken and his 0.535 balls were impossible to load. We suggested that he shouldn't force it, but perhaps a bigger hammer was in order. He didn't think it was funny.

 

[Kansas Kid]

The Santa Fe Hawkin is known to be very accurate, much like the T/C patriot. I use the .520 ball in mine.

 

[bptactical]

Hope ya kissed em when you were done.