India gun

[graybeard]

I've read a lot of opinions about guns made in India. I know the concensus is that they are poor quality. But I wanted a musket, flintlock, to use on grouse, squirrels, rabbits, turkeys and deer. The price of a custom-made gun was out of reach for a frugal old man like me. Actually, I never was frugal when I was younger, which is why I'm living on a pittance now. Anyway, I ordered a gun, a French fusil de chasse. Came today, well within their promised delivery time. I compared it with a flintlock Hawken by T/C and a Kentucky cap gun by CVA. Workmanship was comparable. They didn't send any information on loading and shooting with shot. The ramrod sticks out a smidgen beyond the muzzle. It has no touchhole liner. However, these are minor and so far, so good. :grin: Tomorrow or the next day I'm going to shoot it and will file a range report. graybeard

 

[Cheyenne]

Who did you get it from? Pictures would be nice! :wink:

 

[pargent]

Cant wait to see how you went . :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know the concensus is that they are poor quality

Really?

I'd say the concensus is that one can get an American custom made gun, or semi-custom production gun, that is "outstanding" or "excellent", wtih a compatible price as well. I'd say the quality of "some" (for not every Indian import comes from the same parts maker) of the Indian guns are at the grade of "good", and I'd give some of the Italian guns a grade of "very good", but also that they are overpriced and for that price they should be "excellent" when they are not.

LD

 

[Matt85]

i dunno about rating any italian guns as very good...

this is my take on quallity as sort of an average: (there are some exceptions)

poor: india guns, most spanish guns, and some italian guns.
average: most italian guns and some spanish guns.
good: some italian guns and some semi-custom guns.
very good: most semi-custom guns and some custom guns.
excellent: most custom guns.

 

[shortstart]

In response to Loyalist Dave, I've been looking for Amerrican made "Officers" model muskets and haven't found one in anywhere near the price range of the Indian stuff. I'd like to know if you had something specific in mind when you said that there were comparable prices available over here. I really do prefer home grown stuff. Suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Since it takes the same person just as long to inlet a cheap lock or barrel as an expensive lock or barrel, the gun quality is usually determined by the price point.

That is to say, you are not going to pay a highly skilled gunsmith to assemble cheap parts and sell the gun cheap. Likewise, you are not going to waste premium parts on a novice gun maker and be able to command a premium price.

What is difficult to measure is the level of quality each person needs and how much is “a little more”.

A trade gun selling for $1200.00 is just a bit more than one selling for $950. However if the $950.00 was very hard to come by the $1200.00 is a moot point.

Also, taste, style and usage come into play. My teenaged grandsons enjoy their inexpensive CVA half stocks. Perhaps when they are older, better wood, barrel and lock will make a difference but for now they are happy to hit the gong.

Over time most people gravitate to a gun level that matches their shooting skills and we all know that some, never stop trying to find that perfect gun. :wink:

 

[Alden]

Lot of generalities being bandied about. Any specifics on lock, stock and barrel design and construction, comparative fit, finish and feel, etc?

I had sworn off India-made (particularly the "seconds" sold by that Discriminating General) as basic quality was often wanting. However, they have made some interesting pieces over there that were/are essentially just not readily or un-readily (?) available here except by jumping through hoops and paying many, many, times the price and waiting maybe years (which I have and do do too) for a representative piece one may have a hankering for. My first was the first 1st Model Brown Bess they came out with many
years ago now. It was just not to be reasonably had here otherwise...

Breaking down recently though, a honking unfired consignment made-in-India English CW pistol I recently bought from TOTW went back a few days later... The lateral sear didn't engage the heel of the cock, which was not mounted perpendicular to the lockplate in any case, well enough to be safe IMO.

No prob, I got the pick of the brand-new litter for $10 less elsewhere!

 

[colmoultrie]

Over time most people gravitate to a gun level that matches their shooting skills and we all know that some, never stop trying to find that perfect gun.

Boy, if my gun level had to match the level of my shooting, I'd be stuck with an aluminum pipe duct-taped to a 2x4! :shocked2: :rotf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've been looking for Amerrican made "Officers" model muskets

Well can you be a bit more specific, as there weren't any actual officer "models" made in the 18th century? Officers purchased custom made fusils with their own funds from time to time, and some of these were patterned to look like a King's musket. They tended to be lighter, smaller in dimensions, and smaller caliber such as 16 bore or even as small a 28 bore. The officer's job was not to shoot, but to lead, so they were self defence weapons. Some examples do show they were fitted to take a socket bayonet, which may be why they were carried. Carrying a spontoon or carrying nothing but a sword, would draw fire from Continental riflemen, while carrying a fusil that could mount a bayonet would give the officer the ability of self defense if bayonets came close and they could also shoot.

I haven't seen any photos of an officer's fusil that is being offered as a production gun so can't give any guess as to how it may be, sorry. The one that I did find says it's simply a light infantry carbine with a fancy thumb piece (photo on the website pending). Well the hardware and caliber of that company's LI carbine are correct..., you will need to decide if the actual product is "correct" for your wants and needs.

LD

 

[graybeard]

India gun II
Finally got my French fusil de chasse out to my blackpowder range. Had a mentor with me who has been shooting trade guns for years. First tested the gun with .600 patched round ball over 60 grains of 2f. Windage was right on the money, but balls hit very low. We filed anough off the front sight to get the point of impact almost up to where we wanted it.
Tried the fusil with 1 1/4 oz. of .No. 6 shot over 70 grains of 2F. Pattern was a little low but still very good. Trigger pull was awful at the start, smoothed out some. Ramrod seems a bit flimsy. When you take the lock off, the wood under it needs to be treated. Other than that, the gun seems to be well made, balances better than it looks from its length, and has a quick-firing lock. I'm going to use it a lot this fall, starting with a grouse expedition next week. Sorry, I don't have a camera and wouldn't know how to send a picture if I did. Gun came from Middlesex Village Trading. It was hundreds of dollars cheaper than other new ones. I'm very happy with my choice (so far) :grin: .

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Good deal! :thumbsup: To raise your point of impact you can either bend the barrel very slightly or add a rear sight which could be just an L shaped piece of steel secured to the top flat with JB weld.

 

[Sharps1863]

:thumbsup: Good for you. Sounds like you are off to a good start with your new musket. Instead of using the front sight, if you are shooting at a black centered standard round target. try aiming at the bottom of the target and then bring the barrel up until it is just covering all the black in target Then see what kinda shot pattern it shows. Try not to flinch, Which is hard to do with a flintlock.

 

[Sharps1863]

Dave I agree, English or American Army Officer's did not carry muskets. That would put them into the enlisted men's rank and that was not going to happen during that time. If any Officer carried a custom bought musket or fusil it would be more likely a cavalry officer. They had more use for a short barrel gun.
Not to get off topic, Graybeard No matter what anyone say's I think you made a good purchase. Have fun with your Fusil

 

[shortstart]

In response to "Loyalist Dave". In the interest of not getting bogged down in terminology, instead of saying "Officers Model" , lets say a musket or fusil type weapon that is in the 37 to 38 inch range and is about 65 to 66 caliber. Even a shortened Bess would be okay. I am just looking for something of good quality as compared to an Indian piece. You made reference to the availability of USA made guns at comparable prices. I just wondered what they might be. Any info will be appreciated.

 

[CrackStock]

Try not to flinch, Which is hard to do with a flintlock.

The way to not flinch is to focus so intently upon hitting the target with your shot that you barely notice the shot going off.

A mental game, but an important one.

CS

 

[pargent]

Thet did indeed carry an officers fussil or even a privately supplied musket, some even carried a kings musket if they wished to.Iwill refer you to page 35 of The Brown Bess for quick proof. The practice of officers carring long arms still exists in to-days british and commonwealth armies.

 

Try not to flinch, Which is hard to do with a flintlock.

The way to not flinch is to focus so intently upon hitting the target with your shot that you barely notice the shot going off.

A mental game, but an important one.

CS

I learned the way not to flinch years ago from one of Max Vickery’s writings.

Increase pressure on the trigger ONLY when the sights are on target. When the sights drift off - and no matter how steady you are, they will - hold pressure steady but don’t increase it. As the sights drift back “on” again increase the pressure. If you do it right, the sear will always break when the sights are where you want them to be. And here is the best part. Since you don’t know when the point will be reached, the ball will be on its way downrange before you have a chance to flinch.
The actual firing should be a complete surprise.
This does take a bit of practice and a ton of discipline but it works.
It is a mental game. Yogi Bera said it about baseball but it applies to shooting as well.
It's 90% mental. The other half is physical.

 

[Sharps1863]

Today's armies have nothing to do with the armies of the revolution. I did not say it was not possible, but it was less so with a British army officer carrying a long arm than an American Officer. You might find proof that some did, but again there is no period correct "Officers Fusil" that was made then, especially for issue to just the officers of the revolution..

 

[matt denison]

Today's armies have nothing to do with the armies of the revolution. I did not say it was not possible, but it was less so with a British army officer carrying a long arm than an American Officer. You might find proof that some did, but again there is no period correct "Officers Fusil" that was made then, especially for issue to just the officers of the revolution..

Look at this one and read the text for provenance
http://www.northstarwest.com/officers_musket.aspx

It is not "cheap" nor is it awful expensive for what you get. If you want to argue HC/PC then take it up with the Smithsonian. It is a dead nutz copy of the original.