I just picked up 2 long rifles, need help identifying them.

[railshot]

Like the curious fellow I am, I was cruising the internet and found these two rifles for sale very, very close to me and purchased both of them tonight.

The top one simply has "Plainsman Rifle" and "Muzzleloading Armoury" Spain on it.
I have done a bit of research, but I am looking for your thoughts on it.

The one below it only says "Spain", and is a flintlock.
I do not want to pull the barrel at this time, but will if nobody recognizes it.

Anyone recognize either of them, or hopefully both?
The Kentucky style one needs a butt plate, so that is my priority to identify it and purchase a butt plate..... not into making one, but if need be, I may try.

Never shot (my bore light confirms this) and were wall hangers all these years.

Any input?.... price was far beyond outstanding, so I could not pass them up!
Plus, I finally own a flintlock!

Thanks in advance,
Dave

 

[russellshaffer]

Deer Creek has a lot of CVA parts including a Kentucky butt plate for $15.50 that might work for you. Glad that you got a smoking deal.
http://www.deercreekproducts.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

 

[Black Hand]

Plus, I finally own a flintlock!

Don't celebrate yet.
I am of the opinion that many of the production flintlocks (lock) are why so many people think flintlocks (gun) are unreliable...

 

[Carbon 6]

Top one looks like a hawken made by Dikar Sold generically by numerous sellers circa 70's to mid 80's

Bottom one looks like an Ultra high Kentucky rifle.

Both look to be in great shape. And should be great shooters You are a lucky man.

 

[Carbon 6]

Don't celebrate yet.
I am of the opinion that many of the production flintlocks (lock) are why so many people think flintlocks (gun) are unreliable...

I agree the lock on the flintlock might be disappointing but the gun itself should shoot fine.

I have a gun that looks identical to the "Plainsman" rifle. Mine is a one hole gun. Very accurate. and a great shooter.

 

[railshot]

Don't celebrate yet.
I am of the opinion that many of the production flintlocks (lock) are why so many people think flintlocks (gun) are unreliable...

Heheh, the price was so good, I just could not say no even if they wind up being just wall hangers, or something I can pass on to someone that may be interested in muzzleloading, but not quite to the point of investing a lot of money or time building a kit (a lot being relative I guess).

If that is what happens to them, I really need to read up on both of them so I could pass them on with a certain amount of confidence in them.
If they are really bad, then they stay on the wall and my family can fight over them when I pass on in another 102 years..... heheh, yup, that is my goal.

I just pulled the lock, and all it says is Spain also.... tomorrow I will pull the barrel, but I have a feeling it will be the same... no markings other than Spain.

 

[Black Hand]

Heheh, the price was so good, I just could not say no even if they wind up being just wall hangers, or something I can pass on to someone that may be interested in muzzleloading, but not quite to the point of investing a lot of money or time building a kit (a lot being relative I guess).

If that is what happens to them, I really need to read up on both of them so I could pass them on with a certain amount of confidence in them.
If they are really bad, then they stay on the wall and my family can fight over them when I pass on in another 102 years..... heheh, yup, that is my goal.

I just pulled the lock, and all it says is Spain also.... tomorrow I will pull the barrel, but I have a feeling it will be the same... no markings other than Spain.

There is a thriving market in replacement flint locks. You may be able to find one that fits the gun if the existing lock turns out to be a dud. Soft/case-hardened/low-carbon frizzens seem to be the biggest problem.

 

[railshot]

Top one looks like a hawken made by Dikar Sold generically by numerous sellers circa 70's to mid 80's

Bottom one looks like an Ultra high Kentucky rifle.

Both look to be in great shape. And should be great shooters You are a lucky man.

BINGO! You nailed it on the Ultra High!
I just googled that, and the first picture shows it..... Thank you very much!
Now to research it a bit more.

I will check into the Dikar tomorrow also, good stuff!

 

[Grenadier1758]

You should have few issues with the percussion rifle.

Clean both rifles well to make sure you have a open channel from the nipple to the powder chamber. These are often full or grease and you need to make sure it was put away clean.

The flint locks on the 1970 era Spanish rifles are notoriously suspect. They are one reason that flint locks got such bad reputations. There has been a lot of learning about operation of flintlocks. Try the lock for spark. You want to see a lot of sparks directed into the pan. Check the touch hole. It should have a diameter of 1/16". The touch hole should be centered on the pan and slightly above the top of the pan.

A replacement lock may cost as much as you have spent for the rifle. Installing a replacement will involve in letting changes to the rifle as the fit of a replacement may not be "drop in". Wall hangar option or shooter will be your choice.

 

[railshot]

You should have few issues with the percussion rifle.

Clean both rifles well to make sure you have a open channel from the nipple to the powder chamber. These are often full or grease and you need to make sure it was put away clean.

The flint locks on the 1970 era Spanish rifles are notoriously suspect. They are one reason that flint locks got such bad reputations. There has been a lot of learning about operation of flintlocks. Try the lock for spark. You want to see a lot of sparks directed into the pan. Check the touch hole. It should have a diameter of 1/16". The touch hole should be centered on the pan and slightly above the top of the pan.

A replacement lock may cost as much as you have spent for the rifle. Installing a replacement will involve in letting changes to the rifle as the fit of a replacement may not be "drop in". Wall hangar option or shooter will be your choice.

Thanks Grenadier1758,

I am leaning heavily towards the flint just being a decoration at this point if I can find a butt plate for it.
My confidence in that one in particular, to be used safely, is pretty low at this point, but it presents itself well enough to hang on a wall.

As far as sparks, they do hit the pan quite nicely.
I will know more after I remove the barrel this morning.

It definitely is a smaller caliber than my 50's as my bore light will not drop into the barrel, so probably a .45 or smaller?
What I can see of the bore is it, and the percussion, have never been fired as I was told and just hung on a wall since new.
The percussion is shiny like new top to bottom.

 

[Black Hand]

My confidence in that one in particular, to be used safely, is pretty low at this point...

Why? It looks to be in no better or worse condition than the caplock.

 

[dave61965]

If you have access to some real black powder there’s no reason not to try the flint rifle out, I’ve had and still have several Italian/Spanish muzzleloaders in flint and percussion both and they function fine and are accurate rifles, if you can’t find a butt plate, just make your own, sheet brass, horn, leather etc, fun project, part of enjoying the hobby, plenty of good folks on here to help you along, have fun with it, that’s what it’s all about.

 

[railshot]

My confidence has risen on the flint.
I have the barrel out, and it has no other markings other than SPAIN on it.

When I was researching Ultra Hi, I had read some rather disparaging reports about them having welded on breech plugs, octagon to round barrels (octagon on top, and round on the bottom) so I was a little a'feared of what I might find.
This one has a breech plug that is screwed in, and is a full octagon.
Glad to see all that now.

I still need a butt plate for the flint before I try it otherwise it would probably be a little painful shooting it. Heheh...

Here is the barrel tang and the lock.
The lock looks brand new and unused.

Anyone recognize the lock at all?

 

[Crewdawg445]

Typical production lock that "likely" will give you more trouble than going off. Looks like a old ultra hi lock, essentially the same lock traditions uses today. Nothing great about it in all honestly besides a decoration item. Don't compare its function to a well made lock nor it's reliability as a bassline to all flintlocks. It's these very locks that give our beloved flinters a bad rap. Thin lock plate, unknown steel qualities, frizzen is likely not hardened correctly nor can it really made to be, cock geometry is likely wonkers, springs are probably weak and not properly hardened and tempered just to name a few.

Flint is very worn, what does the face of the frizzen look like?

Also, were is the vent or liner on the barrel? I'm not seeing one. All I'm seeing is what resembles a oblong hole? If that's the drilled hole for the vent...

 

[dave61965]

Typical Spanish lock, some work fine some not so much, yes don’t compare the quality to a nice custom lock but you did say it sparked good so I’d give it a try, the vent hole is a typical direct drilled vent, I have a couple and have zero problems with it, the angle of the photo makes it appear oblong kinda, if it’s .45 cal or even .50 with a plinking load the recoil shouldn’t be an issue even without a butt plate, which is solid brass anyway.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Stop buying inexpensive production guns and invest in a well made kit rifle! Your killing me! LOL I'm anxious to see you build a quality kit rifle because I know you'll do very well and slap yourself for waiting so long! I'll even front the beer money!

 

[dave61965]

I’d bet the majority of folks on the forum started out with an import rifle and got them interested in the hobby, me personally I’m not interested in building a kit rifle, just not my cup o tea but I do admire the craftsmanship I see here, I own and hunt with a couple of custom flint rifles, and also enjoy my production guns every chance I get.

 

[railshot]

Stop buying inexpensive production guns and invest in a well made kit rifle! Your killing me! LOL I'm anxious to see you build a quality kit rifle because I know you'll do very well and slap yourself for waiting so long! I'll even front the beer money!

LMAO, you are cracking me up!

I know for a fact, if you had the chance to get both of these for what I paid, you would..... probably just to sell again, but you would not have said no!

BEER MONEY! WooHoo, that just motivated me!

If it is of any consolation, I am growing rather fond of this flintlock!

I have it all cleaned up inside and out, put back together, and find it rather appealing now...….. I even cleaned the brass a bit.
Some of it was looking more like copper than brass, but it cleaned up pretty good...… not a high polish, just a quick cleaning.

I just need to find a goll-durn butt cap!

(dang, I have to clean this corner of the basement soon, haven't used that Sega in probably 20 years!)

I need a butt plate!

 

[railshot]

I’d bet the majority of folks on the forum started out with an import rifle and got them interested in the hobby, me personally I’m not interested in building a kit rifle, just not my cup o tea but I do admire the craftsmanship I see here, I own and hunt with a couple of custom flint rifles, and also enjoy my production guns every chance I get.

Agreed completely!
I myself enjoy the hands on stuff, when the hands work, and love doing things like this.
The more I challenge myself, the better I feel despite the end results.
I do it for the joy of the doing, nothing more, and there will be a better "kit" down the road.....
Many people drive cars, but have no interest in repairing one, let alone building one from scratch, but they sure do enjoy driving.
:thumbs up:

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Like the curious fellow I am, I was cruising the internet and found these two rifles for sale very, very close to me and purchased both of them tonight.

The top one simply has "Plainsman Rifle" and "Muzzleloading Armoury" Spain on it.
I have done a bit of research, but I am looking for your thoughts on it.

The one below it only says "Spain", and is a flintlock.
I do not want to pull the barrel at this time, but will if nobody recognizes it.

Anyone recognize either of them, or hopefully both?
The Kentucky style one needs a butt plate, so that is my priority to identify it and purchase a butt plate..... not into making one, but if need be, I may try.

Never shot (my bore light confirms this) and were wall hangers all these years.

Any input?.... price was far beyond outstanding, so I could not pass them up!
Plus, I finally own a flintlock!

View attachment 2036

View attachment 2037

Thanks in advance,
Dave

Dave I believe the Plainsman is a CVA circa mid eighties.
I had one at one time

sussexmuzllodr