Help with a rifle lock

[Farren55]

Recently, 2 days before this post, I received in a trade a Pedersoli Pennsylvania 'Dixie' rifle, the rifle itself is great but I have 2 problems that I need help fixing.

1: The lock has a bit of an issue engaging the halfcock or fullcock when anything but perfectly horizontal.

2: the double set trigger when used A barely engages the trigger, and B when I fire using it the gun get caught on halfcock and will only go full travel if I try to beat the speed of the hammer with my trigger pull.

can anyone help?

 

[Tom Compton]

sounds like the fly in the tumbler is missing, dragging or missing.
TC

 

[ccmountainman]

you might try backing out the set trigger adjusting screw first.
If that fixes it no problem.
If not the fly / tumbler / sear is probably worn down from the screw being screwed in to far.
This makes the set trigger set up a very hair trigger and causes the excess wear.

 

[Farren55]

When I loosened the screw it would allow it to engage (tightening it makes it not engage at all).

 

[Farren55]

If it is dragging what is the proper procedure to correct it?

 

[Crewdawg445]

+1 Sounds like a fly issue.

 

[Rifleman1776]

sounds like the fly in the tumbler is missing, dragging or missing.
TC

Yep. Missing probably.
Sadly, losing the fly can be an early and frustrating lesson in muzzle loading. They are tiny and can fall out easily without notice.

 

[jethro224]

Another thing to check is that all of the screws are snug inside the lock. Just remove the lock and check them all. I had one once where the screws were loose and it did the same thing.

 

[Farren55]

the lock seems to be doing fine now, all tightened up, but I still can't get the double set triggers to have the hammer go though it's full swing.

 

[Pete G]

the lock seems to be doing fine now, all tightened up, but I still can't get the double set triggers to have the hammer go though it's full swing.

You really need to fix that. In time it will either wear or break the halfcock notch, which is a real problem. Make sure the detent is in place and lubed properly. Use a light oil; grease will not let it operate properly, especially if worn.

 

[Zonie]

Maybe you already know this but the fly is a very small piece that fits into the locks tumbler.

The fly can move back and forth and it is located so that if it is pushed forward, it blocks off the half cock notch so that the nose of the sear can't enter it.
If it is pushed rearward, it gets out of the way of the half cock notch so the nose of the sear can enter the notch.

When everything is working correctly, here's what happens when the set trigger is released.

1. The blade on the top of the rear trigger flies upwards and hits the arm on the locks sear.

2. That knocks the nose of the sear out of the full cock notch.

3. The mainspring begins to rotate the tumbler (and the hammer or cock) forward.
As this is happening, the sear spring pushes the nose of the sear back against the outside of the tumbler.

4. As the tumbler rotates and the hammer/cock continues to fall the half cock notch is rapidly approaching the nose of the sear.

5. When the nose of the sear is about to enter the half cock notch, it runs into the fly, pushing it forward so that it blocks off the half cock notch.

6. As the fly comes to the end of its movement, the nose of the sear rides up and over the fly (and the half cock notch).
Once this happens, the sear spring again pushes it against the outside of the tumbler as it rotates onward towards the 'fired' position.

When you move the hammer/cock to raise it from the fired position, the nose of the sear rides on the outside of the tumbler until it gets to the fly.

Further rotation of the hammer/cock causes the nose of the sear to push the fly rearward, exposing the half cock notch.

Once this happens, you will hear a "click" and slightly lowering the hammer/cock will allow the nose of the sear to enter the half cock notch.

If you try to raise the hammer/cock towards full cock, the nose of the sear will again, jump over the sear and continue to engage the full cock notch.

At this stage, firing the gun either with the unset trigger or with the rear trigger in the "set" condition gets us back to step # 1.

If the fly is missing or broken, it cannot block off the half cock notch so as the hammer/cock falls, the sear will enter it stopping all further downward movement.

You need to find out where the fly is and why it isn't blocking off the half cock notch like it should.

If it is missing or broken, get a replacement for it.

Until you do, you should NEVER use the set trigger to fire the gun.
Trying to fire the gun in it's present condition will break off the nose of the sear or it will break the half cock notch in the tumbler.

If either (or both) of these things happen the gun cannot be safely used.

A common question is, "Why can I fire the gun safely with the forward trigger even though my lock doesn't have a fly in it?
After all, military muskets and rifles that don't have set triggers don't have flys in their locks."

The reason goes back to step number 3 above.
Remember? As soon as the sear leaves the full cock notch, the sear spring pushes the nose of the sear back against the tumbler.

If a finger is pulling the unset front trigger it is pushing the sear nose away from the tumbler and compressing the sear spring.

Because the finger is compressing the sear spring, the sear can not move back against the outside of the tumbler while the hammer/cock is falling. The shooters finger keeps it away.

If held away from the outside of the tumbler, the sear cannot enter the half cock notch so the hammer/cock will just continue to fall to the fired position.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I went to the Davide Pedersoli web site and reviewed the muzzle loading manual to see if they say anything about the lock and the fly. Unfortunately not much is said about the lock. Go to the Pedersoli and download the PDF file of instructions for muzzleloaders. Do look at the lock drawings in Appendix 3a (Page 42) of the manual. Part 36 is the fly.

So, for all our benefit remove the lock and verify that there is a fly in the tumbler. It is tiny and according to the line drawing in the appendix of the Pedersoli manual, it should be between the tumbler and lock plate. There is one possibility that the fly may be reversed in its recess. Remove the lock and ease the hammer through the release cycle. You should be able to see the fly engage the sear. If there is a fly, it will lift the sear over the half cock notch. If the fly is improperly installed, it will stop the tumbler as if the sear is in the half cock notch. If there is no fly then the sear will stop in the half cock notch.

Your next step is to let us know if there is a fly in the tumbler. The fix may be as simple as turning the fly over. What makes this more difficult is you need to have a mainspring vise to take the lock apart to get to the fly.

 

[Farren55]

I did some looking over everything seems in place in the lock, I think problem is that the double set trigger, trigger is barely engaging (it looks to have worn down with use) and doesn't stay engaged long enough for the rifle to function properly with it.

Since this is a second hand trade it's not too big of a deal for me (currently I'm mostly using it for reenactment until I choose to get a hunting license).

 

[ccmountainman]

that is what normally happens when somebody over tightens the set trigger adjusting screw
two fixes.
a good welder can build that area back up, and then you hone and file it back down.
Or buy the replacement parts.

The older manuals warned against setting the screw too tight. Don't know about the newer ones.

 

[Farren55]

I'll probably buy a replacement what would a good provider of Pedersoli parts be?

 

[Artificer]

I'll probably buy a replacement what would a good provider of Pedersoli parts be?

If this outfit doesn't carry the parts, they can get them for you if anyone can.
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopcontent.asp?type=aboutus

Gus

 

[bpd303]

Another supplier of Pedersoli parts. http://flintlocksetc.com/index.htm

 

[Grenadier1758]

Be sure to order a new fly when you order your parts.

 

[ZUG]

I have a female shooter friend who bought me her Dixie "Cub" rifle for inspection because the lock would hang-up in half cock more than 50% of the time. She told me one of her shooting friends lightened up the trigger and it was doing OK for a while then it started to hang up. I took the lock out and low and behold the tumbler did NOT have a FLY - the tumbler was not cut for a fly from the factory. I annealed the tumbler and milled a recess for a fly and made one for the lock, re-hardened the tumbler. Now the gun works like it should.
I don't know if these locks come from the factory with fly cut into the tumblers or if hers was a freak thing. I say take the lock out and check for the fly - yours might not have one either.

 

[Farren55]

I have checked and It appears to have a fly; I believe that wear and tear for its use (the previous owners had it in 'ok' shape have just prematurely worn the parts, my next step is going to be to purchase a replacement lock then check if the hang-up still persists.

Edit: I also might try to trade it away for a military musket, or try to sell it.