Help in Identifying Flintlock Rifle

[JohnL]

My Uncle just purchased this rifle today from a gun store; they had no information to provide on it and said that the owner knew nothing about it. He thinks it’s a .32 caliber and said there’s no markings visible. Thanks!

 

[ord sgt]

It looks like a nice recently built rifle. The lock appears to be a Siler flintlock. If you could remove the barrel from the stock, there may be stamping from the barrel maker. Calibre may be stamped also.

 

[mooman76]

If you have a drill bit set, that will give you a close idea what size the bore is. Use the blunt end of coarse.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Usually, an unsigned contemporary muzzleloader is one built by a black powder hobby enthusiast for himself. Contemporary gunmakers in the business will either engrave or stamp their name or initials on the barrel's top flat between the breech and the rear sight. Occasionally, it will appear on the next flat left of the top flat on a right-hand gun.

A gunmaker's rifle or fowler is his "business card". A signed gun will be one either made for a customer or one that the gunmaker made to sell to the visible public at a shooting match, for example.

There is one other reason for an unsigned firearm and that is a case where the customer prefers to supply the parts, and hires the maker to build it for the customer. The maker will either leave it unsigned or he will stamp/engrave his name on the bottom flat hidden by the forearm. In some maker's eyes, having the parts provided for him, "robs" him of the profit he would have made had he supplied the parts since he usually buys in quantities, i.e. six barrels, six locks, etc.

The gunmaker may find himself needing the money and he doesn't really like the parts chosen for him, but he could use the cash to assemble the firearm. So, the two agree to an unsigned gun. Here is an example of an unsigned flint double that I bought at the NMLRA Southeastern Rendezvous in 2013. Beautiful execution withe Ed Rayl barrels, L & R locks and gorgeous walnut, professionally finished, but unsigned. It was a mystery that was never solved.

 

[JohnL]

Usually, an unsigned contemporary muzzleloader is one built by a black powder hobby enthusiast for himself. Contemporary gunmakers in the business will either engrave or stamp their name or initials on the barrel's top flat between the breech and the rear sight. Occasionally, it will appear on the next flat left of the top flat on a right-hand gun.

A gunmaker's rifle or fowler is his "business card". A signed gun will be one either made for a customer or one that the gunmaker made to sell to the visible public at a shooting match, for example.

There is one other reason for an unsigned firearm and that is a case where the customer prefers to supply the parts, and hires the maker to build it for the customer. The maker will either leave it unsigned or he will stamp/engrave his name on the bottom flat hidden by the forearm. In some maker's eyes, having the parts provided for him, "robs" him of the profit he would have made had he supplied the parts since he usually buys in quantities, i.e. six barrels, six locks, etc.

The gunmaker may find himself needing the money and he doesn't really like the parts chosen for him, but he could use the cash to assemble the firearm. So, the two agree to an unsigned gun. Here is an example of an unsigned flint double that I bought at the NMLRA Southeastern Rendezvous in 2013. Beautiful execution withe Ed Rayl barrels, L & R locks and gorgeous walnut, professionally finished, but unsigned. It was a mystery that was never solved.View attachment 70067

Thank you!

 

[Notchy Bob]

I would agree with everything written above, regarding the Siler lock, etc.

Just from the photos, it looks like a plain, solidly built working rifle. In that small caliber, it would not only be cheap to shoot, but fun! I hope that rifle has some shooting in its future!

D. Buck Stopshere's comments about makers' marks are spot on. I would carefully remove the lock and barrel and look for markings on the concealed parts of the metal and wood. If the inside of the barrel channel in the stock is not stained too dark, people sometimes write things on the wood. Also remove the butt plate and check the wood and metal for marks. I believe one of the employees of the now-defunct Green River Rifle Works was known for writing and/or drawing little witticisms in that location. I'm not suggesting this rifle is one of theirs... Just that other rifle makers might have done the same.

You have a nice rifle there. Thanks for showing it!

Notchy Bob

 

[JohnL]

I would agree with everything written above, regarding the Siler lock, etc.

Just from the photos, it looks like a plain, solidly built working rifle. In that small caliber, it would not only be cheap to shoot, but fun! I hope that rifle has some shooting in its future!

D. Buck Stopshere's comments about makers' marks are spot on. I would carefully remove the lock and barrel and look for markings on the concealed parts of the metal and wood. If the inside of the barrel channel in the stock is not stained too dark, people sometimes write things on the wood. Also remove the butt plate and check the wood and metal for marks. I believe one of the employees of the now-defunct Green River Rifle Works was known for writing and/or drawing little witticisms in that location. I'm not suggesting this rifle is one of theirs... Just that other rifle makers might have done the same.

You have a nice rifle there. Thanks for showing it!

Notchy Bob

Thank you!

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

JohnL,

I would advise against taking the barrel off to check the underside for maker's mark, IF you haven't done it before. You'll need 1/16" pin punch and small plastic mallet and proper radius bit screwdriver with correct bit to fit the tang screw exactly.

Since you're in "coastal GA", I'd suggest taking it to Bob Hill in the Georgetown area, and letting him do the work IF you've never done it before. Lifting a tight barrel out of the barrel channel of the forearm is very precarious. Once the barrel is removed, the forearm is as fragile as balsa wood. A fall to the floor can be a disaster.

I can give you Bob's contact info if you want to go that route. He is an exceptional custom longriflemaker, and knows what to do to help you with identifying it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There is one other reason for an unsigned firearm and that is a case where the customer prefers to supply the parts, and hires the maker to build it for the customer. The maker will either leave it unsigned or he will stamp/engrave his name on the bottom flat hidden by the forearm.

JohnL...,.

While the BP Smith is at it looking at the underside of the barrel, have him remove the butt plate IF he doesn't want to do that already.
I've known several hobby-builders over the years, and IF they were building rifles based on the customer supplying the parts as Mr. Stopshere mentioned, and they made a small fee to assemble the rifle, they often marked the butt area under the butt plate with the client's name. They might be working on more than one rifle at a time and so would mark the stock and perhaps some parts to prevent them from being confused with other projects. If this was done and the name remains, while it doesn't tell you who built the rifle, it might tell you who to contact to ask who built the rifle, be it the original owner (or the original owner's heirs) who can guide you in learning who the builder was.

LD

 

[nit wit]

Check inside the side plate also. Nice rifle.
Nit Wit

 

[JohnL]

Thanks for all of the input so far. I have since purchased the rifle from my Uncle and am disassembling and cleaning it today. So far, the only markings include “L. Carver” inside of the lock (I posted a separate post about the lock today) and either “86” or “98” stamped inside the brass buttplate casting. I’ll post more photos tonight. Thank you!

 

[JohnL]

More photos. No markings found other than “L. Carver” and the “86” or “98.” Front sight blade is the fleur de lis. Thanks for any information.

 

[JohnL]

More photos.

 

[JohnL]

Markings. Sorry for all of the photos and posts, but my Uncle and myself are curious about this one. Hopefully, it’ll take a few squirrels soon.

 

[jcs266]

Very nice rifle. Well done.

 

[pilot]

Never apologize for posting pictures. We all like pictures.