Issues with flintlock

[cebusey]

Sure you can resole the frizzen, rebuild the lock from basically scratch and come out spending more on lock work than a new gun. While you're at it you might as well cut and fab a new tumbler, rethread the screws (may be sae but diameters vary in india), of course that necessities a new lock plate or welding up the old holes and retapping. Naturally the springs are questionable steel so they need to be remade. You can see quickly the difference between making work and getting into a full rebuild. Make it work, enjoy it.

Compound on frizzens is a tried and true method. You may need to do it "often" if you consider often to be 5-10 years and thousands of shots. A few min to dress and reharden a frizzen to me is nothing more than an inconvience.

My first flinter was a cva circa 1972. Wouldn't spark worth beans. Used kasnit and it corrected the trouble and I still have it, it still sparks and has not (though shot infrequently now) needed to be re treated and if it did as the Commodore said it is not a big deal to reharden with powder. The cva is still junk overall but as it was my first build from a kit it taught me a lot so I keep it.

 

[FlinterNick]

My first flinter was a cva circa 1972. Wouldn't spark worth beans. Used kasnit and it corrected the trouble and I still have it, it still sparks and has not (though shot infrequently now) needed to be re treated and if it did as the Commodore said it is not a big deal to reharden with powder. The cva is still junk overall but as it was my first build from a kit it taught me a lot so I keep it.

Your CVA frizzen more than likely didn’t need to be carburized, it likely had a tempering issue. CVA frizzens are made of investment cast 1095 steel (depending on the production period) or 1084 steel, these frizzens ought not be carburized because they can break rather easily if quenched in water. If not tempered correctly it will eventually break its just a matter of when.

CVA frizzens can also be replaced rather easily if needed for a small cost, so why bother spending 20-30 bucks on cherry red which doesn’t work well, and buy a new one you could drop in?

The reference in the question was as in an Indian made arm. Indian made muskets don’t have drop in replacement frizzens, fitting a new one from another casting set is not easy to do without changing something about the lock.

Carburizing an Indian made frizzen to my point is not a good idea because it’s very temporary, and superficial. The frizzen steels are not made of high quality carbon steel, I’ve worked on enough to them to warranty this claim. Sure they will spark pretty well for a 30-60 rounds right after carburizing, but it will eventually need to be done again, with many heats over and Over, it simply ruins steel that is already poorer quality.

The best solution is to resole an Indian made frizzen.. (not a CVA frizzen), Resoling does not not take long and does and can be done rather easily if you have the right tools to do it. High carbon steel Shims be brazed, soldered, riveted, bolted on, even tack welded on.

Carburizing.. (Not case hardening) steel by consistently heating with a hardening powder, quenching and tempering over and over, and some even sand the frizzen face down smooth too often which loses the facing steel and possibly carbon. It also weakens the part.

Chad’s methods mentioned are not terrible suggestions, it’s just what i would not do personally for an Indian made frizzen. Of the frizzen’ I’ve resoled none of them have ever made it back to me, frizzens spark very well and the musket now as additional life.

Carburizing (with what is available) is best used for smalls things like screws, maybe a top jaw. Kaseinite worked very well, whats on the market today doesn’t contain key components such as potassium ferrocyanide, and the most important component, carbon. Track of the Wolf’s works pretty well, but is still missing the cyanide.

Case hardening with charcoal made from peach pits, chard leather and bone charcoal works best for me for infusing carbon to iron or steel. I burry the parts in a graphite crucible with a lid in an oven and proceed.

 

[Commodore Swab]

To each their own. I did this batch of over 100 last month. They are throwing sparks like crazy.

This is what one looked like after 100 shots without cleaning. After cleaning it was sparking just like it did on number 1.

My personal oldest india piece was usec in pirates 2 and 3, no idea if it was new at that time or not. Has beed rehardened once in my possession. Just real world experience.

 

[cebusey]

Your CVA frizzen more than likely didn’t need to be carburized, it likely had a tempering issue. CVA frizzens are made of investment cast 1095 steel (depending on the production period) or 1084 steel, these frizzens ought not be carburized because they can break rather easily if quenched in water. If not tempered correctly it will eventually break its just a matter of when.

CVA frizzens can also be replaced rather easily if needed for a small cost, so why bother spending 20-30 bucks on cherry red which doesn’t work well, and buy a new one you could drop in?

The reference in the question was as in an Indian made arm. Indian made muskets don’t have drop in replacement frizzens, fitting a new one from another casting set is not easy to do without changing something about the lock.

Carburizing an Indian made frizzen to my point is not a good idea because it’s very temporary, and superficial. The frizzen steels are not made of high quality carbon steel, I’ve worked on enough to them to warranty this claim. Sure they will spark pretty well for a 30-60 rounds right after carburizing, but it will eventually need to be done again, with many heats over and Over, it simply ruins steel that is already poorer quality.

The best solution is to resole an Indian made frizzen.. (not a CVA frizzen), Resoling does not not take long and does and can be done rather easily if you have the right tools to do it. High carbon steel Shims be brazed, soldered, riveted, bolted on, even tack welded on.

Carburizing.. (Not case hardening) steel by consistently heating with a hardening powder, quenching and tempering over and over, and some even sand the frizzen face down smooth too often which loses the facing steel and possibly carbon. It also weakens the part.

Chad’s methods mentioned are not terrible suggestions, it’s just what i would not do personally for an Indian made frizzen. Of the frizzen’ I’ve resoled none of them have ever made it back to me, frizzens spark very well and the musket now as additional life.

Carburizing (with what is available) is best used for smalls things like screws, maybe a top jaw. Kaseinite worked very well, whats on the market today doesn’t contain key components such as potassium ferrocyanide, and the most important component, carbon. Track of the Wolf’s works pretty well, but is still missing the cyanide.

Case hardening with charcoal made from peach pits, chard leather and bone charcoal works best for me for infusing carbon to iron or steel. I burry the parts in a graphite crucible with a lid in an oven and proceed.

I used Kaseinite from 50 years ago with the cyanide and still have a jar of it. I do not disagree with your analysis of the cva frizzen metal content and did not at that time have the skills or knowledge to shoe or replace the frizzen. Have not had to touch the frizzen since I hardened it over 50 years ago as it sparks fine. It is not exactly my go to flintlock mostly due to the off center and angled bore. It is mainly kept as a beginning example. Currently I work on original percussion arms as holy black is difficult and expensive to get in the peoples republic of maryland. My go to flintlock is a Loyalist Arms and I have had no problems with it for the past 20 years. I have had more trouble with a percussion pedersoli than the flint Loyalist. Still have the loyalist - sold the perdersoli

 

[FlinterNick]

I used Kaseinite from 50 years ago with the cyanide and still have a jar of it. I do not disagree with your analysis of the cva frizzen metal content and did not at that time have the skills or knowledge to shoe or replace the frizzen. Have not had to touch the frizzen since I hardened it over 50 years ago as it sparks fine. It is not exactly my go to flintlock mostly due to the off center and angled bore. It is mainly kept as a beginning example. Currently I work on original percussion arms as holy black is difficult and expensive to get in the peoples republic of maryland. My go to flintlock is a Loyalist Arms and I have had no problems with it for the past 20 years. I have had more trouble with a percussion pedersoli than the flint Loyalist. Still have the loyalist - sold the perdersoli

Kaseinite is great stuff, you’re fortunate enough to have some i would use it too.

Brownells has a formula which is oki add potassium ferrocyanide to it, but nothing out there works nearly as good.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I probably have 3 or 4 pounds of kasenit left. Cherry red is used for the masses and works good, just not as great. Ive been able to take some very questionable jap steal and make work with kasenit

 

[oreclan]

Hook up with an experienced flintlock shooter. You will be amazed at how simple things can really be.

The Japanese replicas, especially those made by Miroku in the 1970's were very good. They sparked well and shot well. Look for the bent trigger guard if it is a Brown Bess. As the story goes, the original short land pattern supplied to Miroku had a bent trigger guard and their production muskets had the same bent trigger guard.

I bought a returned Miroku Brown Bess flintlock kit from Log Cabin Sport Shop in 1975. I really liked it and only sold it in about 1985 after I acquired a British Long Land musket made for me by Jim Everett.
I have since brought and sold a Pedersoli Bess, but I would rebuy the Miroku, if I could. Yes I saw it at a Pittsburgh gun show, but didn't have any extra money. I recognized it by the green dot on the back of the trigger (from a safety inspection at the Yorktown Bicentennial) and by a gouge on the right side of the swell at the entry thimble. I guess the previous owner of the kit didn't know that the swell should be there.
Hey if you have seen my old Miroku Brown Bess message me!

I would love to have it back!