Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!

[11th corps]

I think of Hawken rifles as really a style. I own 3, two T/C's and a CVA. Muzzleloading hit a peak in the 1970's, and the T/C and to a lesser extent the CVA were affordable, reliable and good shooters. Were they PC? No, but many did not care. they just wanted the experience of smoke in your face and "hey I hit my target!". I can't tell you how many I have seen in gun shops with gasp, Scopes on them. Blasphemy!
My issue with the T/C particularly is they are heavy. And of course the original sights are no where near PC. But they do work.
Too bad T/C as a company is now in flux.

 

[docmel]

Simple: Beacuse of the movie Jeremiah Johnson

 

[Snake Pleskin]

The Hawken copies came on the market because of Jeremiah Johnson and other movies, a few Spaghetti Westerns have Hawkens in them....... plus also the Civil War Centennial in 1961 started an overall resurgence in interest in muzzleloaders and cap and ball revolvers. People became interested in "primitive" shooting.

The Kentucky Long Rifle also caught a resurgence during this same period , with various movies like The Revolution, Davy Crockett, etc

They are also popular now for the same reason they were back then, they work, they carry nicely in the field and they look good.

My Pedersoli Hawkens are absolute stunners, just beautiful rifles. Probably the best "Hawken" you're going top find in a production, out of the box rifle and if you want a nicer Hawken, you'll have to pay for a hand fitted custom rifle.

Movies like "the Last of the Mohicans." and "The Patriot" also reinforced peoples positive view of long rifles.(IMHO) There were many movies with stars like Kirk Douglas, Clark Gable. Charlton Heston, John Houston, Richard Harris, and others etc were all in movies depicting the Mountain man era etc or at least Hollywood's view of it. All this exposure made ML more popular.(IMHO)

 

[Siringo]

I think the avg mountain man/trapper had to be in decent shape or they would not survive the rigors of the wilderness. I do not believe that most of them were shooting in a traditional offhand position.

A good rifleman always seeks a stable shooting position whenever possible.

 

[gunsmithgreg]

THE true Hawken Rocky Mountain rifle was and is a unique design. Alas, many commercial makers have labeled and marketed their cheapened versions as "Hawken" or Hawkins rifles. The most authentic commercially available Hawken looking rifles were offered by Browning and the Lyman Great Plains rifles.

Some may argue that Hawken (later Gemmer) made whatever the customer wanted. I know a guy who's had many real Hawken made guns that were not Rocky mountain rifles, though were true Hawken brand guns. Double barreled shotguns amongst them. The Hawken shop employed as many as 50 gunmakers and did a lively trade making whatever the customer wanted.

Later the Hawken heirs sold the shop and contents to Art Ressel who produced 100% authentic castings and parts from the original Hawken Shop in St Louis. I got my hands on a set of these parts in the latę0s and have the gun I built to this day.

One may examine all the copies, but will KNOE he's got something special in his hands whenever he has an authentic Hawken in his hands.

The Hawken Shop from Art Ressel is still in business and producing the Classic Plains Rifle. Check us out at www.thehawkenshop.com.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

The Hawken Shop from Art Ressel is still in business and producing the Classic Plains Rifle. Check us out at www.thehawkenshop.com.

I have looked at many Hawken style rife over the years. The TC,TVA types are not based on orig Hawken's IMHO. The Browning rifle was a very good rendition as was /is the Investarms/Lyman GPR. I have compared the kit I built to many other hand built custom Hawken rifles, and frankly, for the money, unless you want bragging rights and snob appeal, the GPR is very close to what originals looked like, even though there are few Hawken's ever built, that are exactly the same in every detail. Each rifle was slightly different which is typical of rifles built by hand. (IMHO)

 

[SPQR70AD]

Most men of the fur trade era were much shorter and weighed much less than todays shooters. Most true to original reproductions I’ve owned, shot, ect are heavy (10+ pounds), and very muzzle heavy (34 to 36 inch barrels). Now maybe a 20 to 30 something mountain man can handle that weight versus a 70 year old today, but for me they are hard to shoot offhand.

The only Hawken Style I have left is a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain. Being a 54 caliber it was muzzle heavy for me to hold up for extended periods. But then I said the heck with it and had Hoyt rebore it to 58 caliber. That shifted the balance point rearward just enough to to make it more pleasant to hold up.

they might have weighed less and were smaller but they were way tougher and stronger then bigger guys today

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I agree with you about the Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle being a close replica of the original Hawken design. I worked for Browning as a sales rep. when the rifle was introduced in 1978, Browning's Centennial Year. The designers did extensive research and studied the Hawken style and made the Browning rifle really close to the originals. I still have the one I bought when they first came out SN PP0115 in 1978 and have shot it lots, and still a great shooter. I have to say though that as much as I really like this rifle, I am liking my Kibler Colonial flinter rifle even more.

I always wanted a Browning rifle and passed up a few that in hindsight I wish I had not done!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

they might have weighed less and were smaller but they were way tougher and stronger then bigger guys today

you had to be tough just to survive the day to day rigors of trying to live! (IMHO)

 

[Texas Gil]

My first TC hawken was bought in 1970's and I was very pleased with it until I researched the real thing and saw the image of the original rifle . It was stunning how much different is was than the TC. Instantly I wanted that rifle. Finally found the Sharon Rifle kit got my real hawken in 54 cal. Still have it today and will pass it on to my son.

 

[sturmkatze]

a few reasons but mainly they are not HC/PC
but I suspect it is also a gatekeeping mechanism that keeps the 'riff raff' out, which I think is trash, not everyone can afford the real deal or a copy of a historic gun

Because it's a historical reenactment and they have these things called "standards" wherein you need a gun like they used in said civil war. Hawken rifles weren't, especially the mass-market sort of close Hawken types. It ain't about your fun, it's about doing it right. Have your own event.

Gate keeper" is another bs modern term by those that refuse to follow standards.

 

[cynthialee]

Because it's a historical reenactment and they have these things called "standards" wherein you need a gun like they used in said civil war. Hawken rifles weren't, especially the mass-market sort of close Hawken types. It ain't about your fun, it's about doing it right. Have your own event.

Gate keeper" is another bs modern term by those that refuse to follow standards.

well maybe with the impending death of the past time it is time to lower some standards?

 

[sturmkatze]

LOL, how f n sad is that. The sport is dying literally and some bunch of HC/PC curmudgeons would keep some one out because they did not spend enough money? WOW.

Reenacting is not some inclusive, happy-happy, joy-joy, free to be me and you thing. If you want to take your Hawken, go to a rendezvous... Don't try to go to a civil war reenactment because that's no Bueno.

Black powder shooting and reenacting are different things. All hobbies are dying out because young punks want video game style gratification.

 

[sturmkatze]

well maybe with the impending death of the past time it is time to lower some standards?

Right, like that works so well. Yeah, let's go back to sears work suits and shotguns. You don't get it. Civil War reenacting isn't hurting like that. But I bet you think it'd be keen to take your t/c Hawken to a rev war event... Right? It's close enough to a brown bess. Ugh.

 

[sturmkatze]

The Hawken Shop from Art Ressel is still in business and producing the Classic Plains Rifle. Check us out at www.thehawkenshop.com.

They are. I wanted one in the 80s when I was a kid in high school. The cost then meant it would never happen. Still a pretty hefty price tag. Compared to Kibler, I dunno.

Hawken rifles really aren't my interest anymore... They were then. Things change.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Reenacting is not some inclusive, happy-happy, joy-joy, free to be me and you thing. If you want to take your Hawken, go to a rendezvous... Don't try to go to a civil war reenactment because that's no Bueno.

Black powder shooting and reenacting are different things. All hobbies are dying out because young punks want video game style gratification.

I also think times have changed, Many young people are not willing to put up with the same level of BS that we endured growing up. The old, do as i say, not what I do, doesn't work anymore. Yong people expect to be given a reason for doing things today, that makes sense to them and fits into their perceptio of the world. it is what it is, IMHO

 

[sturmkatze]

I also think times have changed, Many young people are not willing to put up with the same level of BS that we endured growing up. The old, do as i say, not what I do, doesn't work anymore. Yong people expect to be given a reason for doing things today, that makes sense to them and fits into their perceptio of the world. it is what it is, IMHO

I dunno. The biggest hardcores I see are the young ones. Way more than I. Of course, many aren't... All they want is video games.

You're right about a reason for doing things. You just have to explain it so they understand. Some of them are very good. I'm just too old to be that hardcore.

 

[Dispatch]

Because it's a historical reenactment and they have these things called "standards" wherein you need a gun like they used in said civil war. Hawken rifles weren't, especially the mass-market sort of close Hawken types. It ain't about your fun, it's about doing it right. Have your own event.

Gate keeper" is another bs modern term by those that refuse to follow standards.

Seriously, sarcasm?

I am a CW reenactor and have been since the late 1970's, if it were about "standards", why do the event organizers tolerate all the 1930's prison convict invented Adirondack chairs, blue speckled enamel cookware, aluminum folding military surplus cots, Coleman coolers, Weber grills, and Gatorade bottles in full view you will see at encampments.

The worst violations of historical accuracy are the clowns who walk around wearing the gaudy yellow, blue and red trim, noob reenactors put on their uniforms which makes it look more like they are wearing a Halloween costume than a genuine civil war uniform.

This is why when we get a new recruit in our unit we personally guide them on who and where to buy their needed supplies and to stay the hell away from sutlers at events who sell nothing but cheap quality, farby manure.

Not to forget the big, fat, 300 pound looking reenactors, where one of them always ends up taking a heart attack at literally every event.

There is a lot more I left out but these... are the biggest ones you will encounter at most mainstream events.

 

[sturmkatze]

Seriously, sarcasm?

I am a CW reenactor and have been since the late 1970's, if it were about "standards", why do the event organizers tolerate all the 1930's prison convict invented Adirondack chairs, blue speckled enamel cookware, aluminum folding military surplus cots, Coleman coolers, Weber grills, and Gatorade bottles in full view you will see at encampments.

The worst violations of historical accuracy are the clowns who walk around wearing the gaudy yellow, blue and red trim, noob reenactors put on their uniforms which makes it look more like they are wearing a Halloween costume than a genuine civil war uniform.

This is why when we get a new recruit in our unit we personally guide them on who and where to buy their needed supplies and to stay the hell away from sutlers at events who sell nothing but cheap quality, farby manure.

Not to forget the big, fat, 300 pound looking reenactors, where one of them always ends up taking a heart attack at literally every event.

There is a lot more I left out but these... are the biggest ones you will encounter at most mainstream events.
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Okay, so it's okay to wear sears work suits and carry a a t/c Hawken? How about a zouave? It's not a black and white thing. You try and do better each event. And so, you also want to ban old guys?

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Seriously, sarcasm?

I am a CW reenactor and have been since the late 1970's, if it were about "standards", why do the event organizers tolerate all the 1930's prison convict invented Adirondack chairs, blue speckled enamel cookware, aluminum folding military surplus cots, Coleman coolers, Weber grills, and Gatorade bottles in full view you will see at encampments.

The worst violations of historical accuracy are the clowns who walk around wearing the gaudy yellow, blue and red trim, noob reenactors put on their uniforms which makes it look more like they are wearing a Halloween costume than a genuine civil war uniform.

This is why when we get a new recruit in our unit we personally guide them on who and where to buy their needed supplies and to stay the hell away from sutlers at events who sell nothing but cheap quality, farby manure.

Not to forget the big, fat, 300 pound looking reenactors, where one of them always ends up taking a heart attack at literally every event.

There is a lot more I left out but these... are the biggest ones you will encounter at most mainstream events.
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geez, that coffee pot really destroys the entire event? LOL,LOL,LOl!!!!