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Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens??

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According to Bob Woodfill in his new book (2020) “The Hawken Rifle – Its Evolution from 1822 to 1870”, aside from General William Ashley’s “Super Hawken” which was made in the winter of 1822 & b23, no other rifles were manufactured at the Hawken Shop between 1822 and 1830.

He also mentions that the Brothers had other business interests in the city. The time they spent in the shop would have been repairing guns and supplying goods to the Fur Trade. By 1830, Percussion Caps were plentiful in Saint Louis. Therefore, the guns they built would most likely have had the latest technology.


Does he provide much information about the Ashley Hawken rifle and it's currant whereabouts? I found his part 1 muzzle blasts article but haven't seen a part 2.

I'm going to have to get that book!
 
Does he provide much information about the Ashley Hawken rifle and it's currant whereabouts? I found his part 1 muzzle blasts article but haven't seen a part 2.

I'm going to have to get that book!
I bought that book as soon as it was available. There are no eye-popping revelations in it, but it is a good compilation of Hawken lore. I think of it as a sequel or update for the books by Baird and Hanson, but it doesn't replace them. I think the Woodfill book would be a good general reference on Hawkens to round out someone's personal muzzleloading reference library, or a good "starter" book for a person beginning to take a serious interest in original Hawkens. I can't rave about it, but I'm glad to have it and would say it is well worth $50. It is also a showcase for the author's formidable talents as a rifle builder.

There is a chapter in Mr. Woodfill's book devoted to the Ashley "Super Rifle." Mr. Woodfill freely admitted that there are very few known facts about this rifle, and he employed a great deal of speculation. He built a replica, employing features he believed would have been on the original. The result looks a lot like an early 19th century Virginia longrifle but with a giant, .69 caliber bore, a relatively flat buttplate, and a "big bow" J&S style triggerguard. He elected to use set triggers with a long bar or plate, with the trigger guard attached to the trigger plate. In my opinion, a short trigger plate may have been more authentic. Other very early J&S rifles like the Guns International fullstock (re post #116) and the Peterson Hawken have short trigger plates. I thought his justification for a .69 caliber barrel shooting a .678" ball was a bit convoluted, but he may very well be correct. The other thing that struck me as odd was that he purposely built this super rifle to weigh "only" ten and a half pounds, so he could more comfortably carry it hunting. Longrifles of that period typically weighed 12-13 pounds, and Francis Parkman's Hoffman & Campbell rifle, described in The Oregon Trail, weighed fourteen. Beaver Tom, the alcoholic buffalo hunter in Tough Trip Through Paradise, carried a sixteen-pound Sharps everywhere he went. One would think if you would go to the trouble and expense of building a replica of a legendary rifle, you would try to get it as close as you could to the original.

As for the actual Ashley Hawken, in a short paragraph at the end of the chapter, Mr. Woodfill reiterated the same rumor we have all heard, in that "The fate of the Ashley Hawken is unknown, although a reliable source indicates that it was restored by Keith Neubauer at The Hawken Shop, and is now owned by a wealthy family in St. Louis" (p. 12).

So, amateurs like myself may nitpick a few details with Mr. Woodfill's Hawken book, but in my opinion an updated reference was needed to supplement the works of Baird and Hanson, and the Woodfill book fills that need very handily. The author did his homework and compiled a very detailed, well-illustrated, and readable reference. I would recommend it.

Notchy Bob
 
I bought that book as soon as it was available. There are no eye-popping revelations in it, but it is a good compilation of Hawken lore. I think of it as a sequel or update for the books by Baird and Hanson, but it doesn't replace them. I think the Woodfill book would be a good general reference on Hawkens to round out someone's personal muzzleloading reference library, or a good "starter" book for a person beginning to take a serious interest in original Hawkens. I can't rave about it, but I'm glad to have it and would say it is well worth $50. It is also a showcase for the author's formidable talents as a rifle builder.

There is a chapter in Mr. Woodfill's book devoted to the Ashley "Super Rifle." Mr. Woodfill freely admitted that there are very few known facts about this rifle, and he employed a great deal of speculation. He built a replica, employing features he believed would have been on the original. The result looks a lot like an early 19th century Virginia longrifle but with a giant, .69 caliber bore, a relatively flat buttplate, and a "big bow" J&S style triggerguard. He elected to use set triggers with a long bar or plate, with the trigger guard attached to the trigger plate. In my opinion, a short trigger plate may have been more authentic. Other very early J&S rifles like the Guns International fullstock (re post #116) and the Peterson Hawken have short trigger plates. I thought his justification for a .69 caliber barrel shooting a .678" ball was a bit convoluted, but he may very well be correct. The other thing that struck me as odd was that he purposely built this super rifle to weigh "only" ten and a half pounds, so he could more comfortably carry it hunting. Longrifles of that period typically weighed 12-13 pounds, and Francis Parkman's Hoffman & Campbell rifle, described in The Oregon Trail, weighed fourteen. Beaver Tom, the alcoholic buffalo hunter in Tough Trip Through Paradise, carried a sixteen-pound Sharps everywhere he went. One would think if you would go to the trouble and expense of building a replica of a legendary rifle, you would try to get it as close as you could to the original.

As for the actual Ashley Hawken, in a short paragraph at the end of the chapter, Mr. Woodfill reiterated the same rumor we have all heard, in that "The fate of the Ashley Hawken is unknown, although a reliable source indicates that it was restored by Keith Neubauer at The Hawken Shop, and is now owned by a wealthy family in St. Louis" (p. 12).

So, amateurs like myself may nitpick a few details with Mr. Woodfill's Hawken book, but in my opinion an updated reference was needed to supplement the works of Baird and Hanson, and the Woodfill book fills that need very handily. The author did his homework and compiled a very detailed, well-illustrated, and readable reference. I would recommend it.

Notchy Bob

Love your insights, Bob!!!!

Thanks!

Walt
 
Agreed. I love them too.

I've tried to find pictures/information on that Hoffman& Campbell rifle but can't find any. I haven't read Parkmans Oregon Trail book yet but have plans too. I didn't know that a Hawken rifle was mentioned in there.

I'm wondering if the restoration and ownership of th Ashley Hawken are actually just lore. It seems that someone would have by now tracked the owner down and requested pictures and information.
 
Rifles from the Hawken shop in St. Louis used the latest technology of the day. A flintlock Hawken would be like buying a car today with wooden wheels.
First off good Flintlock gives away very little to a percussion gun, unless wing shooting at birds and back in the day with the variations in caps may have been more reliable and accurate. And not all people in the West were all that enamored with the new technology. This is seen in the writings of the time dating into the 1840s. See ”Firearms of The American West 1803-1865” by Worman and Garavaglia pg 42. Best to read the entire chapter 4.
There is a full stocked S Hawken mountain rifle in the Smithsonian that was made as a flintlock circa 1850. Flint hooked “patent“ breech with a drum installed in the vent. Converted rainproof FL lock that still has the FL fence as a flash guard behind the nipple. The rifle was written up with more photos in the Dec 1977 “Buckskin Report” magazine. And since the lock has a front hook there was no front lock bolt. Had this rifle been converted to percussion in the Hawken shop it might pass as always having been percussion. But it’s a crude conversion, probably by a blacksmith. And remember the percussion system we know today was a product of the late 1820s.
53D1AC83-7A56-4B75-B1E1-F042BE7055BA.jpeg
 
M
The early 80's were shining times for the replica Hawken.
Well maybe for replicas, for actual Hawken rifle replicas? Not so much. The good ones cost too much for the wannabes. A great many ML shooters of that time thought the TC was a “Hawkins rifle”. Or the Italian copies of the TC or something like the Browning Mountain Rifle.. None of which were.
 
I bought that book as soon as it was available. There are no eye-popping revelations in it, but it is a good compilation of Hawken lore. I think of it as a sequel or update for the books by Baird and Hanson, but it doesn't replace them. I think the Woodfill book would be a good general reference on Hawkens to round out someone's personal muzzleloading reference library, or a good "starter" book for a person beginning to take a serious interest in original Hawkens. I can't rave about it, but I'm glad to have it and would say it is well worth $50. It is also a showcase for the author's formidable talents as a rifle builder.

There is a chapter in Mr. Woodfill's book devoted to the Ashley "Super Rifle." Mr. Woodfill freely admitted that there are very few known facts about this rifle, and he employed a great deal of speculation. He built a replica, employing features he believed would have been on the original. The result looks a lot like an early 19th century Virginia longrifle but with a giant, .69 caliber bore, a relatively flat buttplate, and a "big bow" J&S style triggerguard. He elected to use set triggers with a long bar or plate, with the trigger guard attached to the trigger plate. In my opinion, a short trigger plate may have been more authentic. Other very early J&S rifles like the Guns International fullstock (re post #116) and the Peterson Hawken have short trigger plates. I thought his justification for a .69 caliber barrel shooting a .678" ball was a bit convoluted, but he may very well be correct. The other thing that struck me as odd was that he purposely built this super rifle to weigh "only" ten and a half pounds, so he could more comfortably carry it hunting. Longrifles of that period typically weighed 12-13 pounds, and Francis Parkman's Hoffman & Campbell rifle, described in The Oregon Trail, weighed fourteen. Beaver Tom, the alcoholic buffalo hunter in Tough Trip Through Paradise, carried a sixteen-pound Sharps everywhere he went. One would think if you would go to the trouble and expense of building a replica of a legendary rifle, you would try to get it as close as you could to the original.

As for the actual Ashley Hawken, in a short paragraph at the end of the chapter, Mr. Woodfill reiterated the same rumor we have all heard, in that "The fate of the Ashley Hawken is unknown, although a reliable source indicates that it was restored by Keith Neubauer at The Hawken Shop, and is now owned by a wealthy family in St. Louis" (p. 12).

So, amateurs like myself may nitpick a few details with Mr. Woodfill's Hawken book, but in my opinion an updated reference was needed to supplement the works of Baird and Hanson, and the Woodfill book fills that need very handily. The author did his homework and compiled a very detailed, well-illustrated, and readable reference. I would recommend it.

Notchy Bob
Was disappointed.
 
The only Hawken rifle with flint ignition that I have seen is a full stock rifle in the Buffalo Bill Museum - Winchester wing in Cody WY. Jim Gordon may have some in his museum?
In my research, it seems that not only the Hawken Brothers but other builders like Vincent in Ohio went by the rule of Half stock = Percussion, Full stock = Flint.

Walt
 
I almost bought one of DeHaas' barrels, but he wouldn't disclose the metal composition. The original barrel, as sold by Hoppy Hopkins was ordinance steel. He claimed the steel was too tough to machine easily. Still, RIP, Mr. DeHaas.
I haven’t heard Hoppy Hopkins name mentioned in a very long time.

I have one of Hoppy’s barrels 1:75 twist 54 cal round bottom rifled...top tier accuracy, easy loading/cleaning the equal of a similar Don Getz barrel I own.
Premium workmanship by both men.
I built an English style halfstock flinter…hooked breeches are the real appeal of the halfstock rifle…
 
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In my research, it seems that not only the Hawken Brothers but other builders like Vincent in Ohio went by the rule of Half stock = Percussion, Full stock = Flint.

Walt
There were flintlock Vincents built by the father John Vincent. The son, John Caleb Vincent built percussion rifles up until WWI.
 
There were flintlock Vincents built by the father John Vincent. The son, John Caleb Vincent built percussion rifles up until WWI.

I know but I've never seen a half-stock Flintlock Vincent rifle either. My point was their (Hawken & Vincent) policy seemed to be half stocks will be Percussion. Full-stocks will be Flint.

Walt
 
I almost bought one of DeHaas' barrels, but he wouldn't disclose the metal composition. The original barrel, as sold by Hoppy Hopkins was ordinance steel. He claimed the steel was too tough to machine easily. Still, RIP, Mr. DeHaas.

I know but I've never seen a half-stock Flintlock Vincent rifle either. My point was their (Hawken & Vincent) policy seemed to be half stocks will be Percussion. Full-stocks will be Flint.

Walt
John worked during the end of the flintlock era: his son did not. Not to say John didn't build one in later years for someone but J.C. left his father's shop to concentrate more fully on his craft.
 
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I haven’t heard Hoppy Hopkins name mentioned in a very long time.

I have one of Hoppy’s barrels 1:75 twist 54 cal round bottom rifled...top tier accuracy, easy loading/cleaning the equal of a similar Don Getz barrel I own.
Premium workmanship by both men.
I built an English style halfstock flinter…hooked breeches are the real appeal of the halfstock rifle…
Can we see pictures of your British sporting rifle?
 
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