Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens??

[Magungo1066]

I already consulted my flintlock guru, and he, very logically, believes that there were no half stock, flintlock hawkens...But for the sake of discussion and fun, I have a few thoughts. My history nerd brain has the gears grinding...the percussion cap was slow to make itself out west. Many were hesitant until it was tried and proved by a considerable amount of plainsmen and settlers. I theorize that it is possible that some of their early halfstocks could have been flintlocks. Maybe rare and few and far between, but still. Who knows? The Hawken brothers were a custom shop just like Sharps of Connecticut. A lot of those companies would basically give in to what you wanted provided you had the coin. What does everyone think?

 

[tnlonghunter]

I think this is a question that comes up every so often, like Rev War era steel/iron mounted rifles from Virginia. We would like them to have existed, maybe an oddball one did here or there, but not enough to be verified.

All sorts of one-off stuff could have existed - and probably a handful of half-stock plains rifles did. If so, I'd guess they were ones that had a broken forestock that was cut off. On the premise that caps were slow to become popular out west, I'd wager the same applied to uncommon rifle designs. People who preferred to stick with tried-and true would have done the same with the whole gun.

That said, I kinda like the look of a half-stock Hawken. I like the philosophy that the American longrifle is still evolving. While it might not be historically precedented, I like the notion of a rifle with its heart and soul in the past but that reflects my personality.

 

[user 48679]

The very early (1816-30) Hawken Brothers production were flintlocks, but as percussion caps became widely available in the 1830's, the Hawken Brothers switched to percussion locks, also upgrading earlier guns to percussion.

IIRC, half-stock rifles started production after the percussion cap became the Gold Standard of the day.

https://www.fairborndailyherald.com/features/lifestyle/3663/hawken-plains-and-mountain-rifle-history

 

[Magungo1066]

Maybe I will use my imagination haha. Anyone ever heard of Craig Kern? He is the maker of the rifle I am eyeing.

 

[LawrenceA]

The very early (1816-30) Hawken Brothers production were flintlocks, but as percussion caps became widely available in the 1830's, the Hawken Brothers switched to percussion locks, also upgrading earlier guns to percussion.

IIRC, half-stock rifles started production after the percussion cap became the Gold Standard of the day.

https://www.fairborndailyherald.com/features/lifestyle/3663/hawken-plains-and-mountain-rifle-history

Interestibg link.
Thank you for posting it.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The Harper’s Ferry M1903 military and various English half stocks were rocky lockys.

 

[tnlonghunter]

The Harper’s Ferry M1903 military and various English half stocks were rocky lockys.

I forgot about those. I always liked the English Sporting rifles.

 

[TreeMan]

I have a thing for half stock flintlocks. 1803 HF, Mortimer and a Hawken. I love hunting with my Harpers Ferry. It’s a rifle shoppe kit with a Davis HF lock. Accurate and reliable. I can’t imagine that someone didn’t order a flintlock Hawken rifle in the beginning. If we in 2020 prefer a flintlock some old timer back then did also. Finding an original though to win that argument may be as difficult as successful communication with aliens.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I agree with tnlonghunter in that this comes up now and then. I don't mean to offend or challenge anybody at all, but I have a few thoughts on this subject.

On this forum, the term "Hawken" is used rather loosely. It might (and should) be used in reference to the rifles that came out of the shop(s) Jacob and Samuel Hawken operated in St. Louis, starting in 1815, and to faithful reproductions of those rifles. It is noteworthy that the Hawken name continued to be applied to those iconic rifles for some years even after Sam retired, but those later rifles were still true to the type. The term "Hawken" might also be applied to the longrifles built by members of the same Hawken family while they were in Maryland. The Maryland Hawken gunsmiths absolutely produced flintlocks, although I've never heard of any of their rifles that were built as half-stocks.

However, on this forum, the term "Hawken," with no qualifier, is also used in reference to the brass-mounted, mass-produced half-stocks developed by Thompson-Center in the seventies, and copied by virtually all of the Italian and Spanish makers who import rifles to the United States and abroad. These rifles, while fine weapons in their own right, bear scant resemblance to the mountain rifles that came out of the Hawken brothers' St. Louis shop. It is unfortunate that T/C chose that name for this type of rifle. It is not only inaccurate, it is misleading.

One final application is the least accurate of all. There are a lot of people who identify any half-stocked percussion rifle as a "Hawken." Seriously! I have seen it.

So, did the Hawken brothers produce any half-stocked flintlocks? I kind of doubt it. I'm sure Jacob turned out flintlocks, because he opened up his shop in St. Louis in 1815, before percussion caps were in use, but I doubt any of these were half-stocks. I think it is likely that by the time the classic half-stocked Hawken "mountain rifles" were developed, percussion caps were the norm. Could Jake or Sam have made a half-stock flintlock? I'm sure they could, if a customer ordered it, but I doubt they did.

This is not to say that half-stocked flintlocks didn't exist. Of course they did! Just not Hawken half-stocked flintlocks, as far as I know. Several examples were correctly and accurately cited above... English sporting rifles, the M1803, and also some rifles out of New England. Granville Stuart documented the presence of at least one halfstock flintlock on the Iowa frontier in his memoir, Forty Years on the Frontier:

Interestingly, Stuart's narrative documents both the presence and the scarcity of half-stocked flintlocks on the frontier. So, they existed, but there weren't many of them. As an example, this is an original half-stocked flintlock by Gustavus Erichson, from Chris Hirsch's Texas Gun Trade website:

...and a closer view of the buttstock to forend...

...followed by a detail view of the lock, showing the late-style "waterproof" pan and double-throated cock:

Getting back to the original question, which, as I understood it, was "Were there any halfstocked flintlock Hawken rifles?" My answer would be I doubt it, and there are none that I know of. However, there were certainly at least a few half-stocked flintlocks on the western frontier in the early 19th century. They would have been scarce, but they were there. It's just that I doubt any of them were Hawkens.

If you want a passable and believable replica of a half-stocked frontier flintlock, in an affordable price range, you might consider a flintlock Lyman GPR, and replace the lock with this one from L&R (photo from Track of the Wolf):

This lock has the same waterproof pan and double-throated cock as on the Erichson rifle. You could replace the triggerguard with something like this (from The Gun Works):

Oddly enough, The Gun Works lists this as a Jaeger guard. We wonder if Erichson was reaching back into his German roots when he made the guard on the rifle shown above. Anyway, a Lyman GPR modified as suggested wouldn't be perfect, but it would be more believable than a flintlock halfstock Hawken wannabe, and the lock might even be considered a functional upgrade.

Just the view from my saddle.

Notchy Bob

 

[user 48679]

Great view, Bob....

 

[Pete G]

Rifles from the Hawken shop in St. Louis used the latest technology of the day. A flintlock Hawken would be like buying a car today with wooden wheels.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I agree with tnlonghunter in that this comes up now and then. I don't mean to offend or challenge anybody at all, but I have a few thoughts on this subject.

On this forum, the term "Hawken" is used rather loosely. It might (and should) be used in reference to the rifles that came out of the shop(s) Jacob and Samuel Hawken operated in St. Louis, starting in 1815, and to faithful reproductions of those rifles. It is noteworthy that the Hawken name continued to be applied to those iconic rifles for some years even after Sam retired, but those later rifles were still true to the type. The term "Hawken" might also be applied to the longrifles built by members of the same Hawken family while they were in Maryland. The Maryland Hawken gunsmiths absolutely produced flintlocks, although I've never heard of any of their rifles that were built as half-stocks.

However, on this forum, the term "Hawken," with no qualifier, is also used in reference to the brass-mounted, mass-produced half-stocks developed by Thompson-Center in the seventies, and copied by virtually all of the Italian and Spanish makers who import rifles to the United States and abroad. These rifles, while fine weapons in their own right, bear scant resemblance to the mountain rifles that came out of the Hawken brothers' St. Louis shop. It is unfortunate that T/C chose that name for this type of rifle. It is not only inaccurate, it is misleading.

One final application is the least accurate of all. There are a lot of people who identify any half-stocked percussion rifle as a "Hawken." Seriously! I have seen it.

So, did the Hawken brothers produce any half-stocked flintlocks? I kind of doubt it. I'm sure Jacob turned out flintlocks, because he opened up his shop in St. Louis in 1815, before percussion caps were in use, but I doubt any of these were half-stocks. I think it is likely that by the time the classic half-stocked Hawken "mountain rifles" were developed, percussion caps were the norm. Could Jake or Sam have made a half-stock flintlock? I'm sure they could, if a customer ordered it, but I doubt they did.

This is not to say that half-stocked flintlocks didn't exist. Of course they did! Just not Hawken half-stocked flintlocks, as far as I know. Several examples were correctly and accurately cited above... English sporting rifles, the M1803, and also some rifles out of New England. Granville Stuart documented the presence of at least one halfstock flintlock on the Iowa frontier in his memoir, Forty Years on the Frontier:

View attachment 55920View attachment 55921

Interestingly, Stuart's narrative documents both the presence and the scarcity of half-stocked flintlocks on the frontier. So, they existed, but there weren't many of them. As an example, this is an original half-stocked flintlock by Gustavus Erichson, from Chris Hirsch's Texas Gun Trade website:

View attachment 55927

...and a closer view of the buttstock to forend...

View attachment 55928

...followed by a detail view of the lock, showing the late-style "waterproof" pan and double-throated cock:

View attachment 55929

Getting back to the original question, which, as I understood it, was "Were there any halfstocked flintlock Hawken rifles?" My answer would be I doubt it, and there are none that I know of. However, there were certainly at least a few half-stocked flintlocks on the western frontier in the early 19th century. They would have been scarce, but they were there. It's just that I doubt any of them were Hawkens.

If you want a passable and believable replica of a half-stocked frontier flintlock, in an affordable price range, you might consider a flintlock Lyman GPR, and replace the lock with this one from L&R (photo from Track of the Wolf):

View attachment 55930

This lock has the same waterproof pan and double-throated cock as on the Erichson rifle. You could replace the triggerguard with something like this (from The Gun Works):

View attachment 55931

Oddly enough, The Gun Works lists this as a Jaeger guard. We wonder if Erichson was reaching back into his German roots when he made the guard on the rifle shown above. Anyway, a Lyman GPR modified as suggested wouldn't be perfect, but it would be more believable than a flintlock halfstock Hawken wannabe, and the lock might even be considered a functional upgrade.

Just the view from my saddle.

Notchy Bob

LOVE it, great write up Notchy!

 

[Musketeer]

I like the philosophy that the American longrifle is still evolving. While it might not be historically precedented, I like the notion of a rifle with its heart and soul in the past but that reflects my personality.

Bingo! This has long been my take on muzzleloaders, no matter what era or style. Some guys like to be as close to 100% historically accurate as humanly possible, which means only making or using things known for sure to have existed, and that's great; however, I've always preferred to ask whether something could have existed at a certain point in time, given the available technology of the day, rather than did a certain thing exist. If I like the idea of having particular features on a particular gun, then historical possibility is my sole criterion.

 

[tenngun]

I think there is a lot to think about:
Jake and Sam didn’t give a rats hind end about being historically correct. If Joe walked in to their shop and wanted a half stock flint gun their answer would be ‘very good sir, how will you be paying as it will run $22.50.
2) people liked going with style. Caps were invented about 1818 Jed Smith had a percussion in 1831, and half stock to boot. Flints were still a big item in ledgers thirty years later, but was that to fit old guns or for curmudgeons that liked flint. But if you could walk in to a shop and lay money down would you have been the sort to stay old fashion. Should you want to be old tried and true would you want a new style half stock?
3) is it historic?
If we reinact a person we need his equipment . On the other hand if were generic we might have a guy with a one off.
Some one wore the first riflemans shirt. Had the first American jaegar built with a long barrel.... or stayed with a short barrel after long barrels became the style.
Built in the style of the time is a ‘one off custom gun’ non historical?
I’m sure not going to get my breechclot in a wad over a flint half stock Hawken unless you bring it to an event before Jake was making guns.

 

[nkbj]

That was a fun read. Thanks.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks Notch. That was very cool.

 

[rich pierce]

As I’ve said before in other discussions,
the “they would have made whatever the customer asked for” assertion makes numerous assumptions. Here are some:

1) The gun shop was not booked with orders making guns for which they were all set up with parts, plans, and experience.
2) The gun shop could and would go out of their way to source parts and make plans for something one customer wanted.
3) A customer existed with an idea he could not let go of. He had to have something unavailable.
4) Nobody else was making anything close to what the customer wanted.

I know plenty of machine shops and fabricators who turn away business or refer to someone else because they make more money making what they make, efficiently.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Well we might not ever know if Sam n’ Jake did one, but it’s incredibly interesting to know at least ONE person has a halvedstocked flintery piece!

 

[kansas_volunteer]

What seems to get overlooked in all these half-stock flintlock Hawken threads is that Jacob Hawken worked at Harpers Ferry for about 10 years starting in 1808. He may very well have had his hands on some of the later model 1803 rifles made during his time there. He definitely would have been familiar with the half-stock flintlock style rifle and have seen the advantages of them, just as the Army did. The knowledge of such rifles would have traveled with him to St. Louis when he went to join Sam already in business there. The Hawkens weren't just rifle makers, they sold lots of other goods and services. So, as has been pointed out, they made rifles to order, or to look at it another way every rifle they made was a one of a kind. Jake knew how to make half-stock flintlocks and if a customer wanted one, or even thought about having one made, Jake was the man who could do it, and could have steered customers in that direction. Half-stock flintlocks were being made in Ohio while Sam worked there. He would have been familiar with the style. Very few actuall Hawken rifles surive. Even fewer true flintlock Hawken survive. There's a rule in science that one should never generalize from the particular. To generalize and say no half-stock flint Hawkens were made, based on a particular surviving handful -- truly only a handful -- of full-stock flinters is a specious argument. No one can say with absolute certainty no half-stock flint Hawkens were ever made. But what can be said with certainty is the Hawken brothers both were exposed to half-stock flintlock guns before moving to St Loius, and knew well how to make them. If we could travel back in a time machine I think we would find them making, if only occasionally, half-stock flintlock rifles in St, Louis. I'd bet money on it.

 

[brazosland]

The only evidence we have that they didn’t make them is that none survive today... That’s pretty slim evidence.

How many of their pre-1830 rifles exist today? I don’t know the number but I bet it’s single digits.

You just can’t say they didn’t...