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Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens??

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It's estimated approximately one percent of 1803 Harpers Ferry rifles survive, and there were thousands made. What if only one percent of flintlock Hawkens survive and there were probably no more than hundreds made. What were the other 99% or their flintlocks like? Seems like some could have been half stocks.
That’s real possible. After all they made a living building guns for sale. And they made a lot of willowy Ohio style light guns for gentleman sunday hunters.
I have not examined their records, but I understand no flint locks purchase or accounts of making any show up.
I believe there is a lot more to history then what we can prove, so I don’t get on a band wagon over flintlock half stock Hawkens. They could have been, or at least could have been ordered.
But....
No Rodgers ranger guns have been identified, rifle technology was known, could Rodger have gotten a few besses and had them rifled?
Leman made trade rifles, and copied the NWG down to forging British stamps. He made rifles, couldn’t he have made a few rifles NWG?
mist possible and in the realm of technology of the time. You can get a rifled NWG kit from Track of the wolf.
That’s not flippant and crazy like the Romans with nukes post. This is current technology we are talking about.
your welcome at my camp with a rifled NWG or. Flint half stock Hawken. But I doubt either existed
 
Like many others here, I am interested in history. One thing I have learned is that I need to keep my mind open to possibilities, but it's always good to get some additional, corroborating evidence before accepting something previously unknown as fact. Here is the possibility of a "baseball cap" prior to 1834. To prove it, we would need some more examples. To dis-prove it would require questioning the veracity of anything Rindisbacher painted.

Who knew historical study could get so philosophical?

Notchy Bob
Do not forget that very few artists are able to reproduce perspective and detail accurately, and then there is "artistic license" to take into account.
 
I am going to resurrect this fantastic thread, because I am in the process of building (having built) a flintlock British Sporting Rifle, which to most blackpowder folk looks like a "Hawken" going backwards.

Because I have owned and hunted with British black powder rifles for a while, I have spent a silly amount of time trying to piece together the history of the British "Best" gun trade in a way that explains the evolution of their incredible sporting rifles. Donald Dallas wrote the definitive "British Sporting Rifle and Gun," which has photos of early flintlock half stocks as well as the later percussion versions that became the sine qua non of the sporting world. Qualities that many American BP shooters seem to think of as distinctly American were in fact developed in Britain, before coming ashore here and evolving into the Pennsylvania Long Rifle and the Hawken/ Plains Rifle.

So when we see a flintlock Hawken-style rifle that raises eyebrows nowadays, we have only to look at the sporting rifles made in England, Scotland, and Ireland from 1770s-1860s to understand that these later forms and designs were not uniquely American. From what I can tell, and what I believe happened, the Hawken brothers exactly copied the pre-existing British Sporting Rifle that was so incredibly popular across the British empire at that time, but they exchanged a much heavier and more rugged barrel for the highly swamped and more delicate barrel found on the British rifles. I am not saying the British were effete and weak, or that their guns were too svelte for the American frontier. Anyone reading Sir Samuel Baker's adventures knows he took his British Sporting Rifles into battle with the world's most dangerous beasts for many decades, and both he and the guns (that didn't get stepped on by elephants) all came out relatively unscathed and functioning for many years under harsh conditions. But the truth is that the American free trapper frontiersman might have to occasionally swing his rifle like a bat or a club if he was going to keep his scalp, and only the slightly tapered heavy barrel of a "Hawken" would put up with that.

Other than the barrel and the arced butt, when I look at a Hawken/ Plains Rifle, I see a British Sporting Rifle adapted to our own needs and conditions here in America. There is an understandable tendency to look at American gun making as beginning in eastern Pennsylvania and never looking back. We see this in some of the BPCR books, where the otherwise distinguished authors greatly puzzle and even agonize over where oh where did the 45-120 or the 50-130 cartridges ever come from...without realizing the 45-120 Sharps is the British .450 Black Powder Express, and the 50-130 Sharps is the British .500 Black Powder Express, both of which pre-dated the Sharps, but which were adapted to American guns. The point being that a great deal of what we Americans proudly consider to be our own native talent and ingenuity, i.e. PA Long Rifles (evolved from German jaegers) and especially the Hawken/ Plains Rifle (almost exactly copied from the British Sporting Rifle), actually came from Europe.

That said, I am a proud American, and while I believe in international trade, I won't go too far, and so I consider Europe in all ways (guns, politics, cars) to be the prototype and America to be the finely finished end product.
 
There is at least one built about 1970 floating around out there somewhere. I had one built by a well know builder. Lousy job and problems with it. 😖 I sold cheap. I won't say who the builder was but it certainly was a butchered up build.
 
Right on! Can you post some photos of this cool gun?
Right now, I'm in the process of moving the rear sight forward. It has a Hoppy Hopkins barrel, and it's the toughest steel I've ever come across. They were made of ordinance steel! Funny how your eye sight changes as you get older! When I'm finished I will post pictures.
 
Right now, I'm in the process of moving the rear sight forward. It has a Hoppy Hopkins barrel, and it's the toughest steel I've ever come across. They were made of ordinance steel! Funny how your eye sight changes as you get older! When I'm finished I will post pictures.
Ordnance steel? That is one high quality muzzleloader barrel.
 
Ordnance steel? That is one high quality muzzleloader barrel.
They were quite expensive. I understand DeHaas purchased the machinery and is making barrels again, but they changed the steel. I don't know what they are using now, or if they're still in business.
 
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I believe there were half stock flintlock Hawken built rifles.
Robby


According to the new Hawken book, the Bros. did not make any flint guns. Their initial business was repairing used guns and other things.
 
According to the new Hawken book, the Bros. did not make any flint guns. Their initial business was repairing used guns and other things.
Chased down all the serial numbers, did they? 😉
People on this forum have addressed this subject ad nauseum, in excess, forever and a day, and beaten that dead horse into a fine dust. As a history buff, I’m satisfied with believing the Hawken Bros could have made and probably did make some flintlocks before settling on their frontier version of the British Sporting Rifle. Whoever wrote the new Hawken book should have left some wiggle room on this question, because as we see by a slew of informed and incisive comments here, it’s not really settled. I have not read the new Hawken book, so I’m taking your word for it that it’s this black and white.
 
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