got 2 old doubles, need help identifying

[duke21]

hey guys, havent been online much in last month or so. i have two double barrels that i am having trouble identifying. the first is a muzzleloader complete minus the sidelocks and the ramrod. I believe it to be an original oldie, but have not a clue as to how to identify it.

the second is an old breach loading break open damascus barrel gun. it is complete and very tight. unfortunately i cannot make out the writing on the sideplates, even with a mag glass. there are several markings on bottom of barrel and an oval with the letters ELG which i think is a belgian proofmark. the gun doesnt have a forearm to speak of. instead it has 2 levers under the barrel. the larger bottom one, opens the action up. the second smaller one on top of the large one actually allows the barrels to seperate from the reciever. any ideas from the experts here as to how to break this down a little more would be appreciated.

thanks so much and god bless,

duke21

 

[rebel727]

I don't know how many Belgian made guns used the underlever you describe but a friend of mine had a Giles that had them. Take the barrels off the muzzle loader and you may find proof marks on the bottom to help identify it.

 

[duke21]

i located the proof marks and there are several numerials near them as well. any ideas of where i go from here?

thanks for all your help!!!

duke21

 

[fluggies4]

The muzzleloader shotgun barrels usually had the gauge number stamped on the underside...12,13,14 etc. The proofmarks ELG are Belgian. Very hard to determine a maker of the firearm without any other markings as there were many hundreds, unless it is of a particular style that can be attributed to a well-known maker.

 

[paulvallandigham]

To see the marks on the side plates, you might take a rubbing of the plate. Just put a clean piece of paper over the plate, and rub over the characters or letters with a pencil to produce an image of the characters. Often you can seem them more clearly in this kind of rubbing image, than with the naked eye in real life. If you have a magnifying glass of any kind, use it to look at the markings, too. It will help you see many things you can't make out now.

The other markings will be on the underside of the barrel, often in millimeters, so you have to do the conversion, and you sometimes find markings on either the tang, or on one side or top flat of the barrel. Again, with old guns, you may not be able to read much of it, but if you clean off the surface, you can take a rubbing and often get a better idea of what the character or letters are. Don't hestitate to remove the trigger guard, and the buttplate to look for numbers, or letters, or stampings that will give you a clue about origin. R3emove the buttstock, and look at the side of the upper and lower tangs. I have found serial numbers, and other information there, that I just did not find anywhere else.

 

[duke21]

ok guys, i am still struggling with these two oldies. i had tried the pencil rubbing on paper trick several times without much luck at all. on the break open breach loaded gun the letters EM are inside the lock plates. teh barrel rib between the barrels is marked FINE LAMINATED STEEL. after the barrels have been removed teh bottom of the barrel is marked ND, then there is the ELG inside the oval, the numbers 132 and also what appears as 321 with the 3 turned 90 degrees to actually read like an "m" also on bottom of frame the number 1389 is present.

on the muzzleloader, the rib is marked London Fine Twist. on bottom of barrels is some type of symbol 12 HH( crossed swords) 12 ( crossed swords)

does any of this make sense. i stumbled across a website sometime ago that showed probably 40 plus makers of belgian firearms, but somehow have misplaced that as well.

any help is appreciated.

thanks and god bless,

duke21

 

[44-henry]

Belgium guns are some of the most annoying firearms on the face of the planet to identify, you might get lucky, but there is a better chance you will never know the origins of that gun. I have a fondness for old doubles, the older the better. I have a few Belgium shotguns in my collection that are fantastic quality, equal to any of English or American make, but sadly I doubt I will ever know much about them. I could send you pictures of a featherweight 12 guage breechloader that I have in my collection that would likely knock your socks off. The makers were often small mom and pop outfits, skilled, but too small to have gained much recognition outside of their areas. Few records were kept and it didn't help that two world wars decimated a good portion of these talented gunsmiths. The other truth is that many of the larger companies produced guns for retailers in different countries and put there names on the items, or simply didn't put any name at all. The stories can go on and on, but the simple fact is that these are very hard guns to pin down.

 

[sr500]

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