Gosh dang it I need help.

[catskin]

I’m completely new to muzzle loading rifles so go easy on me if I’m doing something stupid. A friend heard I was interested in getting into ML so he gave me a T/C Hawken .50 cal that he built from a kit in the mid 70’s (serial number K175xxx). My interest is in shooting patched round ball only for the most part.

I can’t get this SOB to shoot, if it hits anything at 50 yards ”“from a bench- its pure luck and I’m about out of ideas. I’m shooting both 490 and 495 hornady roundballs, the prelubed patches and 3f Goex powder. I’ve tried the patches from .010, .015 and .018 ticking with both sized roundballs. I’ve also tried wetting the patches with moose milk. (which does make it load better after the first shot!) The best I can do, off a bench at 50 yards, is two shots about 2 inches apart, then the third a foot high and the fourth a foot to the right. Mostly I’m shooting 60grs of powder but I’ve tried other loads also. Most all of the patches I’ve found have been trashed ”“ never found a nice pretty one like I see in photos here. I also tried using those wads under the patched ball ”“ I got better patches but not as nice as some of your photos and it still shot poorly.

Now when I first received the rifle I cleaned it pretty well, it had been cleaned and stored correctly, and was a safe queen for the last 25 years so it wasn’t too bad ”“ the barrel looks good and clean with very minor pitting (very minor) I have

 

Catskin, what rate of twist is the barrel? I'm going to wager a guess. It's probably a 1 in 48. Afriend of mine had a problem with a TC Renegade a few years back, it was a 1 in 48 rate of twist. It did'nt shoot PRB"s worth a s$*t. I landlined Thompson Center Arms and spoke with a Tech Rep and he stated that with that rate of twist there are times that it will prefer eithe a PRB or a conical. We later went out and experimented with conicals and found it liked the 385 grain Hornady Great Plains bullet backed by 90 grains of FFG. You may want to try some conicals.

 

[Don]

Catskin,

The only thing that you might do different is try 2f powder and see if that makes a difference. 3f is typically used in pistols or small cal. rifles. Second, move your target in to 25 yards and take a few shots. Third, check the crown of the muzzle, if its damaged that can badly effect accuracy. I'm not an expert but it might help.

Don

 

[Pittsburghunter]

,

 

[Swampman]

It sounds pretty typical of the T/Cs I've owned and shot. I'd try conicals. The 1 in 48 twist barrels make would nice tomato stakes, but they're a little short.

 

[Zonie]

For a muzzleloading newcomer, you must have been busy reading posts here.
Everything your mentioned seems to be about right for starting loads with a new gun.
Of course, as far as poor accuracy, you hit the nail on the head when you said "...Most all of the patches I’ve found have been trashed ...".

We must find out why they look trashed.

Before jumping on the "try ..." bandwagon because you mentioned having tried different thicknesses I am wondering if you are using pre lubricated patches you might have bought at a gun store?
If the answer is yes, then I suspect (or should I say, I'm hoping) that is the source of your problem.

IMO, many gunstores pre lubricated patches have been hanging on the display for a long time. Sometimes for years.
Any lube will cause the fibers of the material to start to break down. I'm not saying this occures overnight, in fact, it doesn't but after a year or so, it will happen.

You didn't say you tried Pillow Ticking so that gives me the opportunity to say, I think you should. This is the red and white, or blue and white material sold at some Cloth Stores and at Wal-Mart.
It must be 100 percent pure cotton. None of the materials which contain even a small amount of modern man made material should be used.
This pillow ticking is very tough stuff and can take the abuse of being fired out of a rifle without tearing.
It is about .016-.018 thick.
Your TC has rather shallow grooves so the pillow ticking will be fairly hard to "start" even with a .490 diameter ball.

The next thing to check is the sharpness of the rifleing at the muzzle.
IMO, if the rifleing is sharp where it meets the muzzle crown it will often cut the patch when you are starting the ball. It can even cut pillow ticking.
I usually use some 400 or 600 grit black silicone carbide wet/dry sandpaper and the end of my finger to polish off the sharp edges of the crown and the rifleing at the muzzle. I have seen this solve patch cutting problems with several barrels.

Everything else you mentioned seems to be on the right track except you might want to try to smooth out the light pitting you mentioned.
Some folks don't like it but I've had good luck with #00 weight steel wool wrapped around a cleaning jag plus a lot of elbow grease.
The steel wool really doesn't wear or cut the rifleing. It might be closer to say it burnishes it to remove the sharp edges left by the rifleing process. It also can smooth out the slightly rough areas with light pitting.

Although not the best rifleing depth for roundballs, the TC's I own shoot very well so don't give up on your gun.

Let us know how your doing, both the good and the bad.

 

[roundball]

Catskin, think back and try to recall if you were experiencing basically instrantaneous ignition every time, or, did you occasionally get any with a slight delay?

A couple shots almost touching then a shot so wild it's a foot off from the rest sounds like what happens when a delayed ignition (hang fire) occurs, as opposed to what happens from a lube or patch problem.
(I've had a new barrel shred & burn patches at first yet it was still very accurate)

 

[reddogge]

No one mentioned this yet. Check the sights front and rear to make sure everything is tight and not moving.

Also check your barrel wedge to make sure it isn't holding the barrel too loose or too tight. Shouldn't be loose but shouldn't have to pound it in.

That and some good patching should work.

 

[catskin]

Well, I always assumed it was a 1/48 twist but honestly I never counted turns with a tight jag and figured it out. It’s has a pretty shallow rifling ”“ about the same as my .17 cal cf rifles, maybe 4 or 5 thou.

The guy I received the rifle from shot conicals, killed a few deer with it in the 70’s and put it away. He didn’t remember having any accuracy problems with it, but that was 25-30 years ago. According to the rules and my desire, I can only shoot patched roundball.

Oh I do have some 2f powder also; although I’ve only shot it a few times, I don’t remember a difference.

Yeah they are the precut patches ”“ I don’t know how old they are ”“ the store is a new Sportsmans but the stock could be old I guess. The .018 stuff I am using is pillow ticking I thought, it has the blue pattern on it. This is the best patch I’ve gotten ”“ dropped to 30gr powder and used a 50 cal wad.

I've been studing you folks posts now for a month, trying to get this rifle to shoot but God the thought of running steel wool in the barrel gives me shivers

 

[Zonie]

Yup. At ar piller tickin al rite!

Actually that patch doesn't look too bad.
The edges of any patch will always be frazzled like that.
The important thing is the area where the ball touches the bore.
Poor patches will show burn thrus or little cuts thru the material. I really don't see signs of that with that patch.
Did you check the tightness of the sight screws and barrel wedge? As reddogge mentioned, that has caused more than one person to pull their hair.

 

[catskin]

Yeah but I had to drop to 30gr and put in a wad to get that patch, it's the first full patch I've found - it's really got me stumped.

Yes I did check the sights, they are OK - as for the wedge - what is tight? I can push it out with my nail - just barely - mostly I use the tip of a screwdriver.

I also checked the crown with a q-tip, there are no burs but as to how sharp the rifling is? Heck you can barely see it

Thanks for the help guys

 

[marwat06]

I have a T/C Hawkins 50 with 1:48 rifling. It is capable shooting PRB very well, 1 inch groups at 50 yards bench rest. I have used 3f with .015 Prelude patch and .490 balls. I had very bad results. Using the same load with 2f is when I get 2 inch groups normally and 1 inch group if I really take my time. Good Luck. Wish I could be of more help.

 

[mallard1]

It sounds like your barrel is heating up and moving around as it is shot.
Check to see that the barrel is evenly seated in the stock. If this is a kit gun it may not have been inletted evenly. Then as it is shot it heats and moves in stock throwing your shot around on the target. I had this problem with a T/C kit gun i have.
As another person said the wedge should go in easily and be easily removed.
You can eyeball it and also close your eyes and run your fingers along the bottom and sides of barrel channel. You will be able to notice variations if it isn't even.
I don't think you have a barrel or patch problem.
If all else fails you can send it to T/C. They will fix it.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

One thing that can cause poor accuracy is using petroleum lubricants, or a combination of petroleum cleaning solutions and natural lubes. We drove ourselves crazy in the 70's with all the new whiz-bang gee-whiz space age lubes and cleaners, and found after awhile that our great granddads knew what they were doing, after all.

Petroleum products leave a carbon residue in the bore that can cause problems like you describe.

Good luck!

 

[catskin]

I guess what I’m hearing then over all is; I should try conicals, if they shoot well, I can blame the barrel for its poor RB performence ”“ if they shoot poorly I should start looking at bedding, sights and wedges etc.

OK what kind/brand of conicals should I shoot? Are they sized to the bore? Where should I start?

 

[cayugad]

If you want to shoot conicals then try some of the maxiball. I never had any luck with the maxihunters in my Hawkins or Renegade. I usually shoot them with 80 grains of powder.

As for the roundball problem. I would try a couple of things. Since you were using a wad, keep at it if it will usually protect the patch.

I would guess that there might be a bad spot or sharp spot in the barrel. I would get some J-B Bore Paste and a Scotch Brite Scouring Pad. I would then use a patch worm and cut a small chunk of the Scotch Brite off. Smear a good amount of the bore paste on the Scotch Brite and scrub the barrel. Usually 50 strokes with some additional paste every 20 strokes or so.

Whether it helps or not, but my Hawkins and Renegades shoot roundball best with stiff charges. I like to push them to 90 grains and even more at times with a patch and ball.

Just keep trying different combinations. I am sure you will find the right one and the rifle will shoot just fine for you.

 

[Slenk]

catskin
your problem could be leading in your barrel , you said the fellow you got the rifle from shot conicals . If he shot hot loads or used alloy bullets .

 

[jimeckersley]

catskin
your problem could be leading in your barrel , you said the fellow you got the rifle from shot conicals . If he shot hot loads or used alloy bullets .

That's a good suggestion. A friend of mine had a problem with leading after shooting conicals. We cleaned his barrel using several applications of Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner. It will take out lead, copper or any build up. Just follow the directions on the tube.

To see if your patches are being cut, you can push a patched ball down the bore and bring it back out with a ball remover or co2. Check the patch to see if it's been cut by the rifling. Use the 000 steel wool mentioned above.

Another good suggestion was to stay at 25 yards until you have your problems worked out.

A 1 in 48 twist with a .50 caliber will work fine for anything but very large powder charges. Consider this. My .50 pistol has a 1 in 22 twist that shoots very well with up to 50 grains of 3f. Many of the 50 and 54 plains rifles such as the Hawken had a 1-48 twist.

In addition to pillow ticking, you can try a heavy drill cloth or denim. You may have to use a .490 ball with the heavier denims.

If you buy cloth from a fabric store, run a bead of waterproof glue, similar to Elmers, around the edges so that you can wash it without having it fall apart in the washer.

Assuming that you’ve checked the bore for leading, cleaned with Blue Wonder, used the steel wool, used the heavier denim patch with a .490 ball, you should start to see better groups.

Let us know.

 

[hobbles]

Mornin catskin
Nother thought, K, two thoughts,
1, can you move the barrel with your hand from side to side any? Grab hold of the stock with one hand and the barrel with the other and twist,,
2. Check the stock behind the hammer, Is there a crack there?? T/C's old stocks had a problem there, They fixed it,,

 

[Landngroove]

Your T/C 1 in 48" barrel should shoot patched round balls with accuracy. I agree with cayugad- there may be a bad spot in the barrel. Maybe some pitting you can't see without the correct light. It sounds as if everything you are doing to work up a load should work. Maybe a thorough inspection of the bore, and some lapping compound if needed.