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fizzen

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johan

32 Cal.
Joined
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Hello folks,

Here are some pictures of the fizzen on my Pedersoli Alamo flintlock.
[url] http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/flinta/fizzen-2.jpg[/url]
[url] http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/flinta/fizzen-1.jpg[/url]
[url] http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/flinta/fizzen-3.jpg[/url]

I have shot about 200 shots with the rifle, does this look normal?

My flints won’t last very long, is the peck on the fizzen the problem? If so, what should I do to solve the problem?

/Johan
 
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fizzen-2.jpg


This part looks bad, I can see how it's eating up flints, the rest of the frizzen below that gouge shows some signs of normal wear...

I suspect the frizzen was too soft to begin with, I would expect to see that after 12'000 shots, not 200...

I suggest replacing the frizzen with a new one, if you file and/or grind the existing one, you will need to re-harden the striking surface...

For now, you can set you flint deeper into the jaws, this will change the point of impact on the frizzen's surface and (hopefully) miss the gouge, hitting below it...

Spare parts for Pedersoli guns can be found at these three US locations...

Spare parts deposit

BEAUCHAMP & SON INC., DBA Flintlock's Etc
160 Rossiter Road RICHMOND, MA. 01254 U.S.A.
Tel: 413 698 3822 Fax: 413 698 3866
eMail: [email protected]

DIXIE GUN WORKS INC.
Reelfoot Avenue - P.O.Box 130 UNION CITY, TN. 38261 U.S.A.
Tel: 731 885 0561 Fax: 731 885 0440
eMail: [email protected]
Web:[url] www.dixiegun.com[/url]

VTI REPLICA GUN PARTS
P.O. Box 509 LAKEVILLE, CT. 06039 U.S.A.
Tel: 860 435 8068 Fax: 860 435 8146
eMail: [email protected]
 
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Thanks for your answers.

One more question. How hard have the frizzen to be? Like a good knife or like a file or like?????

/Johan
 
You could also try to silver solder a piece of hacksaw blade to your frizzen. Kind of like resoleing and old pair of shoes. This would get you shooting while waiting for a new frizzen. As mentioned it sure looks like your frizzen was to soft. How hard is hard? I don't know but a file bearly marks my frizzen It won't cut it.
Fox :thumbsup:
 
This is what my Petrocelli did before it broke.
What ended up being the fault was the frizzen spring wasnt tuned at the factory and it wasnt releasing, letting the rock scrape its way down.

When mine broke on the 8th shot, it took DGW 8 months of trying to get a frizzen from Italy.

We ended up modifing one of their frizzens to fit.
After installing the frizzen, and having the springs tuned. That lock still works today.
 
Grinding the ridges out and hardening the frizzen with Kasenet is my first thought.

You can fool with this lock forever and you'll still just have a badly engineered Pedersoli lock that will probably never work right.

Go ahead and order the R&L replacement lock.
[url] www.lr-rpl.com[/url]

You will have a good lock that is properly heat treated. You will have it sooner than you can get the spare parts in Sweeden. The cost will probably be less than Perdosoli will want for just the frizzen and finding someone to properly heat treat and install the new part.
 
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Hello Ghost,

Where can I find those locks? And will they fit to
my rifle without any fitting job?

/Johan
 
Gyttorp No. 3 said:
Hello Ghost,

Where can I find those locks? And will they fit to
my rifle without any fitting job?

/Johan

Sorry, I didn't see the link you posted :redface:
 
ghost said:
Go ahead and order the R&L replacement lock.
[url] www.lr-rpl.com[/url]

I don't see a lock on their site that will fit that gun... :hmm: :confused:
 
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:applause: Ghost is right . I have shot for some 60 years now,when we started parts were impossible. We made our own and half soleing a frizzen was common. A piece of banding steel salvaged from the lumberyard , cut to size and shape with shears, bend to fit the curve of your ratty frizzen . file the frizzen bright on the face,shine the back side of the sole. use kasenit and hold the sole at the tip. When hardened and cleaned up you can soft solder it as we did thenor now I have used epoxy for over 800 shots and it is still on. All this FYI Bob
 
Gyttorp No. 3 said:
I have shot about 200 shots with the rifle, does this look normal?


Definately not what I'd call normal. :shake:

Seen this start on my own pieces before. Usually caused by the flint litterally crashing into the frizzen at too close to a 90 deg. angle. Besides the gouge I'll bet you didn't get more than 10-15 shots from a flint(if that?).
Without going to extreems, if you're using the flints with the bevel on the bottom, try turning it over and hitting lower. Setting the flint deeper in the jaws will pull it back some too and allow for hitting lower at more of a slicing angle. Cutting a notch in the leather so the flint rest against the clamp screw is anouther possibility.

You look like you're hitting 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up on the frizzen, and this is usually a good thing. However, not all locks are perfectly the same. If it sparks well hitting a bit lower and the flints last considerably longer, I wouldn't worry about where it's hitting so much.

I'd try setting the flint to strike below all that nasty looking gouge and give it a try first. It may just be good enough to save the day for now.

200 shots definately ain't much, I'd expect 2-3 thousand before I saw a need to replace/rework the frizzen.
Worth a try? What you got to loose?
I'm surprised someone else hasn't already suggested this. :confused:
 
You could weld the grove up and case harden the face. Looks like it wasn't to hard to start with. The frizzen should be as hard as a file on the face and not so hard on the back side. It also need to be hard where it rides on the spring. If it were hard all the way through it might break. Many years ago the Dixie catalog told of hardening a frizzen with a piece of lether on the face and put in the fire for around 1/2 hour and then quenching in water. I tried it and it does work.
 
Frizzens do wear out overtime, but this looks to me that you might be using those man made agate flints. The agate is extreemely hard and thus very hard on your frizzen. Initially this frizzen will have to be replaced, or resurfaced, then you would be wise to go to the natural english flints as they are much eaasier on your weapon, give great spark and can be resharpened when the edge goes dull.

Toomuch
............
ShootFlint
 
I would resole it. I've done it before on old locks, sort of looks the part and works well. I always riveted the piece on then case harden it. I guess you could silver solder a piece of tool steel on to it, quench it while red hot to make it harder than glass then draw the temper back a bit. Anyway if its the frizzen only giving you the problem that would be the easiest and cheapest route to take. I have found that replacement parts do not allways line up.
 
NO. Your flint is striking too high on the frizzen, and too square to the frizzen face. You need to bend the cock downward so that you create a 55-60 degree angle between a line leading along the bottom jaw of the cock to the frizzen face. Use a plastic protractor, and put the center point at the face of the frizzen where you flint touches. The bottom edge of the flint should be parallel and even with the top edge of the cock jaw it sits on. You have the classic washboard groove in your frizzen's face that comes from not having the flint striking the frizzen on a stroking angle. The flint is suppose to slice and throw bits of steel from the face of the frizzen into the pan. Because the frizzen is hardened, and tempered these bits of steel will be red hot - better white hot- when they leave the frizzen.

I also see that you are wrapping your cut flints with leather. This is also a No-no. The leather acts as a shock absorber and allows the edge to bounce back away from the frizzen instead of cutting slivers of steel in one clean stroke. This condition allows steel bits to clog the edge, and cause misfires. It also makes you spend a lot of time knapping away valuable flints when a properly set up lock would allow you to shoot without concern for knapping at all.

Instead, wrap your flint with lead, as in a lead ball, that you hammer flat and trim to size. Use a spent ball from the backstop to save your good ones. Make up a couple of lead strips and keep the extra in your flint wrap in your possibles bag. 1/16" is thin enough to work, yet give you enough lead that you can let the teeth in the jaws of the cock grab the lead well, while conforming the top wrap to the smooth surfaces of the flint, holding it firmly in place. The extra weight of the lead wrap will help the flint drive through the surface of the frizzen cutting steel in a continuous slicing motion and throw the bits into the powder while they are white hot!

Finally, you should use a trigger gauge to measure the tension of the springs in the lock. The frizzen spring, or feather spring, only has to hold the frizzen closed when you are shooting upside down! 2.5 to 3 lbs. is more than enough tension to get this done. I bet that featherspring on your gun will test out over 10 lb., easy. The real test of a well set up lock is to fire the gun without the featherspring in place. The frizzen should still spark and the cock throw the sparks into the pan without the featherspring holding the frizzen.

The mainspring should be no more than 10 lbs. These are usually 30 lbs and more. You will need a bathroom scale to measure these, as most trigger gauges don't go that high. Just put the gun butt down, and empty, of course, on the bathroom scale and not the measured weight of the gun. Then slow but consistently put pressure on the cock until it is held by the full cock notch. Record the weight on the scale when you reach that point, then subtract the weight of the gun, and you have the spring tension of the main spring. When the springs are too strong for the job they are being asked to do, they demolish flints, ruin frizzen faces, and rattle and tickle the gun so its next to impossible to hold the gun off hand for any good shooting. Its even hard to hold these well using a bench rest. Reduce the spring, by grinding filing, etc slowly using your fingertips to keep a read on how hot the spring is getting, and cooling it down frequently. I use slow rpm grinders and sandering belts to remove spring stock, taking my time, and testing the springs in the lock to see how much change in weight I have made as I remove material. You want the upper arm on the mainspring to flex its whole length, and not just the tip of it. The bottom arm of a V-spring does not flex. Polish the contact point where the springs press against the frizzen toe, or on the tumbler for the main spring, and make sure there are no other parts of the lock rubbing against the lock plate. If you find rub marks, figure out what is rubbing and file or grind it away. You want the parts of the lock to move freely and smoothly, without drag. That is how you get a faster lock time.

widen the pan in your lock with a dremel tool and grinding bit and then polish the bottom of the pan mirror smooth. This prevents the surface from holding residue or moisture, and makes it easy and fast to clean with a swipe of your thumb and a cleaning patch. The wider pan will allow ignition of the prime to take place even if your flint is getting short, and the sparks fall towards the rear of the pan, and not in the center. About every 20 shots, you can expect to have to move your flint forward, and use a twig to wedge behind the lead wrap to keep it forward in the cock's jaws. I get 60-80 shots from the front edge, and maybe another 20-40 from the back edge before I have to replace the flint altogether. I could get more, but the flint becomes too short to hold securely in the jaws. My " done " flints are almost square in shape, to give you an idea of how much use you should expect before changing them. Throw the leavings away. You have gotten your money's worth.

What to do with this frizzen" . Well, first I would get a propane or accetylene torch to heat up the neck of that cock and bend it forward to that 55 degree angle. Then I would regrind the surface of that frizzen to smooth it out, although that groove is so deep I don't think I would bother. Since the bending of the cock will have the flint hitting lower, you can ignore the groove. You might also be able to obtain a replacement frizzen from Traditions, since they are still marketing this rifle. I like the flint to strike from 1/2 to 1/3 from the bottom of the frizzen so that it will pop the frizzen up to clear a route to the priming pan for the sparks at the right time. There are better designed modern locks than you show on that rifle. Retemper the frizzen by putting it on a baking sheet( cookie sheet to some) in your oven at 450 and leave it for 2 hours. Let it cool down over night. It should give you nice sparks after the retempering.
 
Appears there is a geometry problem. When I have encountered such, the simplest trial test was to just shorten the flint up so it allows the cock to rotate further and flint to strike the frizzen in more of a downward arc. This will result in more of a scraping action of the flint upon the frizzen, rather than a head on bludgeon effect, which your pictures indicate is occurring.

I currently have two rock locks that I use the short flints on, I grind or knap a notch in rear of flint for upper jaw lock screw clearance, they are now very reliable sparkers. Learned this trick from another, so it is not mine.
 
After looking at your pictures again showing this cock with a flint mounted, I don't think the flint is too long. If You shorten it, the cockscrew will hit the top of the frizzen on the downstroke, stopping the entire action. I think the neck on your cock is too long, making it hit too high on the frizzen. This is a lock geometry problem, and is the fault of the manufacturer of the lock. It might be smarter to just find a replacement lock with better geometry. I wonder where the edge of the flint is when the hammer is down, in relation to the center of the pan? I suspect that its way too far forward, ie., pointing to the front of the pan, rather than the middle of it. And, I wonder where the sparks are landing in the pan when you drop the hammer on an unprimed gun? With the flint hitting that groove at the top of the frizzen, they may now be going anywhere. YOu might want to invest in a spare cock screw for this gun, in addition to a new frizzen, and grind down the round head with the hole in it, and replace the hole with a screwslot. By reducing the height of this cockscrew, you give more clearance for the frizzen when the hammer drops. Then, you might be able to heat the neck up and bend it forward enough to make the flint scrape sparks, and not dig into the frizzen. :confused:
 
lonesomebob said:
:applause: Ghost is right . I have shot for some 60 years now,when we started parts were impossible. We made our own and half soleing a frizzen was common. A piece of banding steel salvaged from the lumberyard , cut to size and shape with shears, bend to fit the curve of your ratty frizzen . file the frizzen bright on the face,shine the back side of the sole. use kasenit and hold the sole at the tip. When hardened and cleaned up you can soft solder it as we did thenor now I have used epoxy for over 800 shots and it is still on. All this FYI Bob
Epoxy as in something like JB Weld?
 
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