First time Buyer

[Alden]

Miroku Bess' have a cult following. Many consider them simply the best ever made and pay premiums for them. I won't disagree with them.

As for India-made...

...you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They are below average products in every respect. As far as Bess' go, for example, other than a pot-metal and plastic non-firing replica for sale at a museum gift-shop, there are no real ones that aren't better.

 

[NC Highlander]

I am a bit wary of cults. They're rather pushy and give you weird tasting fruit punch.


So, if I were to be on the look out for Italian, what is a good price to look out for then? Aside the obvious.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The Japanese Bess has only a slight difference between it and the Italian. The original that they copied had a slight bend in the trigger guard, so they are easily spotted. When they first appeared they were poo poo'd, yet the ones in service have been doing so for many many decades. They have earned a reputation for being good muskets...not a cult following. The barrels were made by Miroku, who makes barrels for many gun makers including Browning. If you find a serviceable one within your price range you would do well do obtain it (imho).

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There are two or three for sale on GB now

Actually, there are four...., but alas the sellers live in The Perfect World while we live in The Real World.

Three are the "Bicentennial" special editions. Now they may be rare, but that doesn't make them collector's pieces. One is "in the box" with a lock marked "Stowe" which is quite rare, but again just an oddity. One is missing a chip from the lock mortise...

The name "Stowe" commemorates the death of a friend of the person who ordered the lock engraved that way as rememberance...I think maybe it was Turner Kirkland ordered a bunch of locks marked as such, but can't confirm....

Two appear to be in "unfired" condition (one of which is the one with the damaged lock mortise), which means they are just as good as brand new Pedersolis...well the frizzen springs may be better, but that means they are worth $1000 MAX unless you like having the previous owner's name engraved with modern letters on the comb of your buttplate.

The third claims to be in unfired condition...but if that's so....why does it have the flash guard installed on the lock??? At the most, again, new, with warranty, they go for $1000 on sale, so can't be worth more than that.

The Bess "carbine" isn't RARE...they still make it today, and the one up for sale was made around 1992 (if my info on Pedersoli serial numbers/proof marks is accurate). It's well used, dirty, and too bloody short for most people's applications, and they want $1000 :shocked2: for it, when again you can get a proper sized one brand new under warranty for $1000, when they go on sale....

:shake:

LD

 

[NC Highlander]

The Japanese Bess has only a slight difference between it and the Italian. The original that they copied had a slight bend in the trigger guard, so they are easily spotted. When they first appeared they were poo poo'd, yet the ones in service have been doing so for many many decades. They have earned a reputation for being good muskets...not a cult following. The barrels were made by Miroku, who makes barrels for many gun makers including Browning. If you find a serviceable one within your price range you would do well do obtain it (imho).

LD

I guess I'll keep an eye out for them. Thanks

 

[NC Highlander]

Trying to imagine firing a gun with someone's name on it.

Don't think I'll pay 1000 for that. I might as well just buy a new one at that point. Even then, kind of out of my budget.

 

[spudnut]

don't discount the India guns,One I posted a pic of my India made fowler on my FB page and wound up with a new friend that sent pics of the same gun with the stock reworked and it is one of the finer fowlers I have seen,I'll be stripping mine down soon.So if you come across an India gun check it out.
Also why wouldn't a LLP work for a Rev war instead of the short land? I thought it would be the opposite.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As far as why a LLP won't work for NC Highlander's unit is that the 84th Highlanders are representing the unit two years after coming to the colonies (with their LLPs). After two years the 84th has a reissue of firearms to bring them up to the latest and most serviceable version of the Land Pattern muskets, the SLPs. At that time all of the 84th's LLPs were returned to stores and SLPs were issued. While we may quibble about which version of the SLP was issued, for the most part there is no reason to pick apart which gun NC Highlander chooses to purchase. He is getting reasonable guidance from the 84th's commander. He has been provided a lot of information from this forum. Now it is time for him to follow the path he needs to go.

 

[Alden]

Actually, the Japanese Bess has a definite but you-have-to-be-looking-for-it-and-probably-comparing-it-next-to-a-Pedersoli "flat" in the trigger guard. And due to its special reputation among some experienced reenactors I have had unsolicited offers of twice as much as I paid for mine from strangers at large events. That said, used Pedersoli's have caught up in recent, well, I was gonna say years but it has been the past decade for sure.

Unless you know someone who is passing along their hobby to the next generation, paying it forward, there are few (if any) bargains to be had. Highlander, I would ask your unit commander if he might announce at your next gathering that if anyone is interested in selling "an affordably priced used Pedersoli Bess to a new member" that they should see you.

 

[NC Highlander]

don't discount the India guns,One I posted a pic of my India made fowler on my FB page and wound up with a new friend that sent pics of the same gun with the stock reworked and it is one of the finer fowlers I have seen,I'll be stripping mine down soon.So if you come across an India gun check it out.
Also why wouldn't a LLP work for a Rev war instead of the short land? I thought it would be the opposite.

I'm not really discounting India guns. If something good pops up, I'm still pretty open.

There's not much wrong with an LLP, I don't mean to come across that way. As Grenadier stated, our unit portrayal is a few years after the war started and we used SLPs. The only event we could really use LLPs is Moore's Creek, but they don't really do a battle as much of a living history event. So it's kind of a utility issue? There aren't any FnI events in NC to really justify getting an LLP right now.

That and preference, I suppose.

 

[NC Highlander]

I just had an event this weekend and pretty much had all the guys asking around. Actually got to borrow a guy's SLP Pedersoli, because his son wasn't going to make it the second day. Definitely a bit easier to handle than an LLP, considering I'm short.


I did find a Japanese Bess on Gunbroker. Though, it seems to be mislabeled. The title said LLP, but it's 42 inches, which is the SLP barrel length, right?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=505578639

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Actually, the Japanese Bess has a definite but you-have-to-be-looking-for-it-and-probably-comparing-it-next-to-a-Pedersoli "flat" in the trigger guard

Which is why posted opened with:

The Japanese Bess has only a slight difference between it and the Italian. The original that they copied had a slight bend in the trigger guard, so they are easily spotted.

:idunno:

LD

 

[willowbilly]

It looks a little rough. The barrel should be shiny. It looks like it may be rusty. It might have some significant pitting.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Highlander,
I have a Miroku Bess that I took in trade for gun work. I am going to dump the stock and rework it into a very passable copy of a model 1759 marine and militia musket. I am waiting for the proper English walnut slab from which to make it. The Miroku barrel is very good quality and has a good reputation. All of the parts are well made but they mostly look like the were assembled directly from the investment casting molds. The lock is good but needs much tuning and better fitting. The stock is much too straight for a shooter. You cannot get your cheek down on the butt to aim. The short land pattern muskets were typically very straight, which discouraged aiming. Fortunately, the marine and militia pattern (the first with a 42" barrel) has more drop and shoots better. The royal markings on the lock are machine stamped and I need to get rid of them and re-engrave them. Finally, the trigger guard has a funky slightly flattened bow unlike any Bess. I don't know why Miroku did that. I think it is a good production musket that for me, offers good raw material from which to make a really HC gun.

dave

 

[NC Highlander]

It looks a little rough. The barrel should be shiny. It looks like it may be rusty. It might have some significant pitting.

Well, that's slightly disconcerting.

 

[NC Highlander]

Hi Highlander,
I have a Miroku Bess that I took in trade for gun work. I am going to dump the stock and rework it into a very passable copy of a model 1759 marine and militia musket. I am waiting for the proper English walnut slab from which to make it. The Miroku barrel is very good quality and has a good reputation. All of the parts are well made but they mostly look like the were assembled directly from the investment casting molds. The lock is good but needs much tuning and better fitting. The stock is much too straight for a shooter. You cannot get your cheek down on the butt to aim. The short land pattern muskets were typically very straight, which discouraged aiming. Fortunately, the marine and militia pattern (the first with a 42" barrel) has more drop and shoots better. The royal markings on the lock are machine stamped and I need to get rid of them and re-engrave them. Finally, the trigger guard has a funky slightly flattened bow unlike any Bess. I don't know why Miroku did that. I think it is a good production musket that for me, offers good raw material from which to make a really HC gun.

dave

Well, it at least seems like a good starting point? I don't think I can really expect to have completely top-notch quality, I don't have a few thousand to blow, but rather bang(or, klakfff) for buck.

 

[Alden]

Finally, the trigger guard has a funky slightly flattened bow unlike any Bess. I don't know why Miroku did that.
dave

The "flat" mentioned above is faithfully reproduced by Miroku...

...from the pattern original musket they have. The soft trigger guard had clearly been banged and flattened slightly on the bottom but they did not realize this was an anomaly as unexaggerated if not actually natural-looking as it is.

 

[willowbilly]

You can get a replacement Pedersoli butt plate. Might need some fitting.

 

[willowbilly]

It took me about six months of looking on Gunbroker and Guns International to find a Brown Bess. At first I was not interested in a Japan made Bess. After reading several opinions of the Japan made Bess on this forum and other sources I decided to get one. Made an offer on Guns International for a Miroku made Bess that was accepted. $650., (including shipping to Alaska), for the musket, bayonet, and sling.

It is in great condition. The only thing I was not thrilled about was the stock. It is not walnut. It was a lighter colored wood. Was not a problem though as I sanded it down and re-stained it with dark walnut stain that I mixed with some ebony stain. Now it almost looks like walnut. The barrel polished out very nicely as has all the brass. It is a great shooter.

May take some time but if you can be patient you can get a good deal.