First time Buyer

[NC Highlander]

Hello all. I'm looking into buying a Brown Bess, mainly for reenacting but I'd like to put a few rounds through it as well. I'm rather new. I've been borrowing and firing some from the regiment I'm in, but I'd to own one of my own.

I'm thinking of buying used, since I'm not sure if I have the means to buy a brand new gun. I'm young and on a budget. New Pedersoli would be nice but I don't have 1100 bucks burning a hole in my pocket.

What kinds of things do I need to look and watch out for when buying something like this?

Thanks

 

[Grenadier1758]

If you are looking to use the Land Pattern Musket for reenacting, then you should be talking to the reenacting group you want to participate. The musket for the F&I units is the Long Land Pattern. Thing get a bit more complicated when you get a musket for the AWI. Some units may be using the later versions of the Long Land Pattern and some will be using a Short Land Pattern Musket.

In any event, finding a unit to be reenacting with will put you in a position to know what model to be looking for. You may also find used muskets for sale and used equipment.

My unit has a few extra muskets for prospective recruits to use during reenactments as well as partial uniforms. We want our recruits to know that they are welcome and that reenacting with our unit to our requirements is in order.

So, while I have an opinion as to which Brown Bess to get to reenact for the F&I representation, an entirely different gun is proper for the AWI.

 

[NC Highlander]

If you are looking to use the Land Pattern Musket for reenacting, then you should be talking to the reenacting group you want to participate. The musket for the F&I units is the Long Land Pattern. Thing get a bit more complicated when you get a musket for the AWI. Some units may be using the later versions of the Long Land Pattern and some will be using a Short Land Pattern Musket.

In any event, finding a unit to be reenacting with will put you in a position to know what model to be looking for. You may also find used muskets for sale and used equipment.

My unit has a few extra muskets for prospective recruits to use during reenactments as well as partial uniforms. We want our recruits to know that they are welcome and that reenacting with our unit to our requirements is in order.

So, while I have an opinion as to which Brown Bess to get to reenact for the F&I representation, an entirely different gun is proper for the AWI.

Right, forgot to add that I do AWI, so I'll be needing the Short Land Pattern. I talked to the regiment leader, he said to look for India guns.

But if I'm buying used, what are some things to look out for? Like signals or pieces not working and the like. And I suppose what would be a decent price. I've looked at new stuff, I'll be spending upwards of 800 bucks getting all the gear I'll need for the musket, and that's just the India model.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That's kind of odd, that he would tell you to look for the Short Land Pattern, and suggest Indian made. Usually when the India origin muskets are mentioned, it's a version of the Long Land Pattern that is suggested. For the SLP folks normally suggest Italian, or used Italian or used Japanese.

Please be certain of what you're to buy. For the vast majority of units, the LLP is the correct musket for the AWI, unless for some reason your unit is so well documented that they can show they had SLP's at some point during the war. IF he's suggesting an SLP from India, ask if that's just because of price. Don't be in a hurry to buy.

LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

Right, forgot to add that I do AWI, so I'll be needing the Short Land Pattern. I talked to the regiment leader, he said to look for India guns.

But if I'm buying used, what are some things to look out for? Like signals or pieces not working and the like. And I suppose what would be a decent price. I've looked at new stuff, I'll be spending upwards of 800 bucks getting all the gear I'll need for the musket, and that's just the India model.

I agree with Dave on this one. During the AWI most continental or Loyalist units would be armed with an older version of a English arm. The arm could be a Long Land Pattern of 1756 or is some cases the arm would be a Dutch arm loosely patterned after the British Long Land Pattern.

What you need to look at first is the basic fit and finish of the gun. Parts should fit. Locks and triggers should function. Frizzens should easily flip open. The lock should generate lots of sparks. The trigger pull will be stiff, but manageable. You don't want to see a lot of black powder fouling around the lock. Run a moistened patch down the barrel. Expect the patch to be dark black and the patch should run easily up and down the barrel. The black is from previous oiling and carbon left behind after cleaning. Brown rusty colored patches will indicate less than perfect cleaning. Reenactors are good at making the exterior look good while the barrel gets neglected. Lastly, have someone else look at the gun.

British regular troops would be armed with a Short Land Pattern.

Before you buy a musket get Gale's book, "Of Sorts for Provincials". There's a lot of information about muskets used in colonial America.

I reenact a British Grenadier unit during the French and Indian War. My musket is a Long Land pattern that has been upgraded from the wooden rammer to an iron rammer. The gun was imported from India by Loyalist Arms. I am satisfied with the performance and reliability. I have shot live rounds and many blank rounds. Of the India produced guns, I think that the ones offered by Loyalist are a good choice. For a short land pattern, getting a used Pedersoli bess or a Japanese version may make the entry more affordable.

Welcome to the hobby.

 

[Alden]

For the vast majority of units, the LLP is the correct musket for the AWI...
LD

Although I don't believe it is "vast" that is arguably correct vs. the SLP, however, it is misleading. Almost no units, and few reenactors, carry LLP's -- the Pedersoli 2nd Model is far and away what the true "vast majority" of reenactors use. I am confident that there are more of them fielded in Rev. War reenacting than all other arms combined including riflemen!

For someone to recommend an India-made one to someone just entering the world of living history would imply to me that person is inexperienced and/or the OP expressed to him the constraint of severe financial desperation equal only to that of participating in "the hobby." If the OP is seriously considering an India-made then I would certainly urge him to get a LLP!

My main unit's "correct musket" is 1728/46 Charleville. And you'd be hard pressed to find a unit more correct and professional which is why I'm an impressed and impressive member. Yet I'm one of a relatively few who actually have that French musket, and mine is a de la Marine. Almost everyone else uses the ubiquitous Pedersoli -- and for pretty good reason actually.

 

[nwtradegun]

check the internet gun sales. you would be better served with a used pedrosoli or jap made bess.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have to assume that the regimental leader told you to get a second model Short Land Pattern Musket. It is true that for all practical purposes the Short Land Pattern Musket is used for units that are reenacting the AWI. While the correct musket may have been something else, the Short Land Pattern is what was nearly universally accepted for use in reenactments.

What musket is being used by the other members of the unit? I am sure the suggestion to get an India made musket is based on cost and what is being used by the regiment.

So without any further knowledge of the guns used by your regiment unit, my suggestion is to not rush into purchase of a Short Land Pattern Musket. Take your time and search for a used Pedersoli Second Model or the Japanese version. Be sure to get a bayonet that fits.

Once again, welcome.

 

[NC Highlander]

That's kind of odd, that he would tell you to look for the Short Land Pattern, and suggest Indian made. Usually when the India origin muskets are mentioned, it's a version of the Long Land Pattern that is suggested. For the SLP folks normally suggest Italian, or used Italian or used Japanese.

Please be certain of what you're to buy. For the vast majority of units, the LLP is the correct musket for the AWI, unless for some reason your unit is so well documented that they can show they had SLP's at some point during the war. IF he's suggesting an SLP from India, ask if that's just because of price. Don't be in a hurry to buy.

LD

Is it? I think most of the guys in my regiment use Indian guns, with a few Pedersolis maybe. My regiment leader is a gunsmith, so he's kind of able to fix most stuff wrong with India guns apparently.

I'm portraying the 84th Highland Regiment, we got SLPs after a few years in the war, so I can prove our unit used them. Somewhat unrelated, it helps that the SLP is slightly shorter since I'm rather on the short side myself.


I'm definitely not jumping into the first thing I see, I've been trying to do as much research as possible and ask around first. I do consider myself a careful buyer most of the time. I figured you guys might also be of service.

 

[NC Highlander]

check the internet gun sales. you would be better served with a used pedrosoli or jap made bess.

Are there any places on the 'net that sell these used? Gunbroker turned up with nothing for me.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Based on the unit being the 84th Highland regiment, you should get a Short Land Pattern musket.

The Pedersoli and Mirouku (Japanese) muskets show up occasionally show up on the used market. You may have to wait for some time before one turns up for sale. They go for a premium price (more than a new Loyalist Arms musket) for used guns mainly because of the perceived and real quality associated with these guns.

In any event in the new gun market, the Loyalist Arms 2nd model is $599 US and the Pedersoli is $1,300 US. The recommendation based on price for the Loyalist Arms gun is pretty solid. Order the bayonet at the same time you order a Musket. By the way expect to spend as much for the uniform and accessories as you will for the musket.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

To Clarify... (sorry if I was obtuse)

For the vast majority of units, the historic musket they should carry would be a version of the LLP musket.

While it is correct that the vast majority of reenactors carry an SLP from Italy or Japan (and that version is a mediocre copy), that does not change the fact that the unit they portray probably did not use that musket in history. Anecdotal "evidence" of a group that stresses authenticity, but fudges on the musket, doesn't make that musket more "correct". We've also established that regardless of what the majority uses, the thread was started because that is not affordable to the peperson.

I find it odd that a person would recommend the Indian SLP when it is likely that the unit did not carry the SLP, so why not recommend the more correct musket, albeit an Indian made LLP, if one is recommending an India origin musket? Hence the admonishment, to double check. IF the unit DID carry SLP's, AND cost is the only issue, then of course I would understand the recommendation.

IF the recommendation is to simply make the unit appear uniform so they'd rather all have SLP's, while saving money, well, folks may have different opinions on that...,

..., my opinion on that is if the SLP is not the right historic musket for a group (and again, it's not the right musket for most of the units in the AWI), plus it's not useful in any earlier conflict, then buying the Indian version merely compounds the error. I mention this, even though I own three Indian made muskets from Loyalist Arms, plus one Pedersoli musket and one Japanese musket, and I use the Indian muskets when reenacting.

LD

 

[garra]

I was nosing around the Gunsamerica site looking for a musket. Found one that was interesting, but Belgium made. Sort of had a military style to it. If you go to the site just use the word 'musket' as the search.

 

[NC Highlander]

Based on the unit being the 84th Highland regiment, you should get a Short Land Pattern musket.

The Pedersoli and Mirouku (Japanese) muskets show up occasionally show up on the used market. You may have to wait for some time before one turns up for sale. They go for a premium price (more than a new Loyalist Arms musket) for used guns mainly because of the perceived and real quality associated with these guns.

In any event in the new gun market, the Loyalist Arms 2nd model is $599 US and the Pedersoli is $1,300 US. The recommendation based on price for the Loyalist Arms gun is pretty solid. Order the bayonet at the same time you order a Musket. By the way expect to spend as much for the uniform and accessories as you will for the musket.

I'm fine with waiting a little bit, but after being in the regiment I kind of want to start getting my own stuff.


How much is a decent price for a used Pedersoli? I know I'm not going to get one for dirt cheap, but I'd like to know a ballpark area.

 

[NC Highlander]

To Clarify... (sorry if I was obtuse)

For the vast majority of units, the historic musket they should carry would be a version of the LLP musket.

While it is correct that the vast majority of reenactors carry an SLP from Italy or Japan (and that version is a mediocre copy), that does not change the fact that the unit they portray probably did not use that musket in history. Anecdotal "evidence" of a group that stresses authenticity, but fudges on the musket, doesn't make that musket more "correct". We've also established that regardless of what the majority uses, the thread was started because that is not affordable to the peperson.

I find it odd that a person would recommend the Indian SLP when it is likely that the unit did not carry the SLP, so why not recommend the more correct musket, albeit an Indian made LLP, if one is recommending an India origin musket? Hence the admonishment, to double check. IF the unit DID carry SLP's, AND cost is the only issue, then of course I would understand the recommendation.

IF the recommendation is to simply make the unit appear uniform so they'd rather all have SLP's, while saving money, well, folks may have different opinions on that...,

..., my opinion on that is if the SLP is not the right historic musket for a group (and again, it's not the right musket for most of the units in the AWI), plus it's not useful in any earlier conflict, then buying the Indian version merely compounds the error. I mention this, even though I own three Indian made muskets from Loyalist Arms, plus one Pedersoli musket and one Japanese musket, and I use the Indian muskets when reenacting.

LD

Yeah, I've done the research, my unit may have started out with LLP but they were issued SLPs once they were part of the Regular army. The regiment leaders did their homework and showed it to me. So, as you said, the India recommendation is simply because I don't have the money to drop on a new Pedersoli with all the accoutrement.

 

[Alden]

Well, the India-made bit is to save money. But the model type is to be uniform.

Personally, I'd still prefer to get the LLP knowing that someday, when I'm rich and famous, I'm going to get a quality 2nd Model Pedersoli and I'd still have an earlier 1st Model as backup, for F&I, and for my collection. But, O.K.

I understand you want your own stand of arms. If the barrier to complete immersion is the musket then go India-made already... Just understand what you're buying.

 

[AZbpBurner]

There's been a little vague mumblings here about the Indian muskets. I have several and am impressed with my final results with them. My latest is a .62 cal Fusil de Chasse from Loyalist. I recommmend a look at their website.

Keep in mind that the Indians should be considered kit guns, since although they are assembled and kinda ready to shoot, a complete disassembly, strip and some woodwork is needed to make them look their best. I got my Loyalist Fusil without stain or finish, and am in the process of reprofiling the stock, and removing the protective coating of some kind of goat oil infused into the wood. All the hard work fitting parts has been done, but a lot of fine wood removal will make it a showpiece. The iron fittings are shiney, but I'll go over them to remove some residual tool marks. The lock is pretty much good to go as-is (unlike my experience with Middlesex).

If I were to get a Bess, it would be this one: http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/shortland2ndmodel.htm

I don't care about what the historinistas may say about it, I shoot for my amusement and have no aspirations towards wool tunics, pewter buttons, or burlap undies :blah:

No matter what my current opinion about Middlesex, my .62 fusil from them is a fine shooter, (now) nicely finished, and gets a lot of requests to shoot it at every visit to the range. With my now-tuned lock, ignition is smooth and positive, and the frizzen is impressive - very little visible wear after several hundred rounds fired & it's easier on flints than any of my others.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah, I've done the research, my unit may have started out with LLP but they were issued SLPs once they were part of the Regular army. The regiment leaders did their homework and showed it to me. So, as you said, the India recommendation is simply because I don't have the money to drop on a new Pedersoli with all the accoutrement.

Ah well no worries then!

The "correct" version for the AWI has a rounded side plate, and at a distance is similar to a LLP cut down to 42". For the Pedersoli folks they can reduce the inaccuracy by swapping out the flat side plate for a rounded one from the Rifle Shoppe.

(actually, IF you get an SLP with a rounded side plate, you probably won't be "spotted" at an F&I event right off... the most easily recognized difference at a distance is the lack of a rounded side plate on the SLP made in Italy or Japan.)

LD

 

[AFMSgt]

There are two or three for sale on GB now

 

[NC Highlander]

Ah well no worries then!

The "correct" version for the AWI has a rounded side plate, and at a distance is similar to a LLP cut down to 42". For the Pedersoli folks they can reduce the inaccuracy by swapping out the flat side plate for a rounded one from the Rifle Shoppe.

(actually, IF you get an SLP with a rounded side plate, you probably won't be "spotted" at an F&I event right off... the most easily recognized difference at a distance is the lack of a rounded side plate on the SLP made in Italy or Japan.)

LD

Alright, thanks for the heads up. At least that's an easy thing to replace?


So, what is the consensus on Japanese production Besses? I know the rep for Italian and Indian, but not too much on the Japanese.