Fake Alert

[pargent]

Two Dublin Castle marked Besses have poped up on sites for sale and one has been sold despite warnings.
These fakes are well done but easy to spot if you know your stuff, they are using Indian made replicas as the base for these fakes . So be well aware that more will likely follow them .

 

[Wes/Tex]

It never ceases to amaze me how well some fakes are made. It's almost to the point that I'm afraid to seriously look at any 'antique' gun, especially muzzleloaders.

 

[Woodyrock]

Nearly off topic. Years ago, I was making quite few spinning wheels, most work done with hand tools since aside from my lathe the only power tool I had was a big bandsaw. Anyhow, a client called me to tell me of a wheel in the local museum (big city) like one I had made for her. So, off I go to to see this old wheel...the ones I was making were from a British museum drawing. A very nice docent took me right to the wheel on display. It was one I had made,somebody 'aged' , and the museum staff had authenticated. At this time I dated all work with Roman numerals using a chisel, which was a traditional method. Museum staff had miss read the date by by one hundred years. The main reason the staff authenticated as old was the tool marks, and the wood was from a very old crate that had been pitsawn. I was quite embarrassed, and tickled pink all at the same. Since that time, I date with number stamps. I had inadvertently discovered hoe easy it was to fake an antique....and at this time no one would have called me an expert at my trade.
Woody

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There is the story of the Smithsonian displaying an axe for a year or two from the Revolutionary War..., until the smith who made the axe head happened to see the exhibit, recognized his work, and clued in the "experts".

LD

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Hey, even the Newtowne musket that allegedly came over on the Mayflower has been deemed a fake by experts.

And it is the first item on display in the American Military History Section of the Smithsonian's American History Museum.

 

[Alden]

The Newtowne musket isn't a "fake" per se but I don't think they claim it was on the Mayflower, do they? Point is it wasn't a matchlock, it was a snaphaunce and converted to a matchlock probably when it broke. This is pretty obvious when you look at the lockplate...

Isn't there some other gun called The Mayflower Musket or something that was hidden behind a front door frame panel that some folk question?

 

[user 922]

That is the "John Alden" gun that was found behind a panel in the Alden house. It was immediately attributed to John and the Mayflower solely on the evidence that it was found in his home (which has been continually occupied for the past 300 years). It is featured at the NRA museum and there's a video of the curator offering "conclusive evidence". How could a 21 year old cooper afford a Wheelock to bring with him on the Mayflower?

I find that some gun collectors immediately assign a famous maker or owner to an unsigned gun based on the sketchiest of detail or provenance. I'm sure this helps the retail value but I would expect more from the NRA museum.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

About 15 yrs ago, I was looking at a "restored" vehicle at a car show. Something about the thing just looked too familiar and yet the whole vehicle, a very small two seater appeared like one of the 1910 to 1920 contraptions. A cast aluminum gear box just seemed out of place by 40 or 50 years. And then suddenly it dawned on me. The hood was the shroud from an early 1960 window air conditioner. The shift lever and brake lever were from an old New Idea hay rake. The wheels were from a couple of old manure spreaders and the seats were cut from 50 gallon oil drums that had been fancy upolstered with leather. The rear mounted round gas tank was from an old combine. The whole thing was made up out of scrap pieces of other stuff. But darn it looked like an old original at first.

 

[Alden]

Bucks;
Provenance notwithstanding, I was only pointing out someone mixed up their guns. The Newtowne musket, which is not necessarily a fake but certainly misleading, is part of the permanent display of the Smithsonian’s American History Museum in D.C. The Mayflower Gun is at The National Firearms Museum across the river.

By the way, who knows what any particular individual amongst the Pilgrims could or couldn't afford. Maybe he got a great deal on Gunbroker. But seriously, coming to Northern Virginia (which is where they were supposed to land) I would think his firearm would be a key investment. The officers of Jamestown, and remember John Smith himself recommended the pilgrims come here, were required NOT to have matchlocks anymore two decades after the landing of 1607! After the Pilgrims landed it is more likely folk would have been trying to buy something most "modern" like a snaphaunce (again, as the Newtowne Musket originally was). I find it highly plausible that wheelock found hidden in Cooper's family home was the beachead founder's.

Regards;

ALDEN!

 

[Woodyrock]

My experience with the wheel in the museum was an eye opener as to how easy it would be to fake something. There is, and probably always have been those individuals with a lack of ethics making something that it is not. I would not want to even be thought to be one. Whilst it is a nice feeling to have someone say a piece looks old, it is not so having a piece thought to be a fake. I drive those date stamps in hard.
Woody

 

[Rifleman1776]

It never ceases to amaze me how well some fakes are made. It's almost to the point that I'm afraid to seriously look at any 'antique' gun, especially muzzleloaders.

I once learned that the (very) hard way. A guy strolled into my gun shop in Indiana (about 1971) and showed me some old, mostly junk, modern pistols. I made deals on a couple super cheap. Then he pulled out a flintlock pistol. Wow! :shocked2: He had my attention immediately With his permission I dissassembled it, looked at inside wood, how the screws were made, etc. I was convinced it was an original. Made him a deal but still for fairly big money. As soon as he left I called an acquaintence who was an avid collector and highly knowledgable. As soon as he walked in and saw it he said, "Oh, you got one of those also." He showed me exactly how it had been faked. Buried in dirt, acid on metal parts, etc. Great job of faking. He had suckered every dealer in southern Indiana with similar fakes. I wasn't alone but that didn't make me happy.

 

[Alden]

My experience with the wheel in the museum was an eye opener as to how easy it would be to fake something.
Woody

But pit-sawn wood Woody... You gotta admit that's a feature that, if someone recognized, would be compelling, no? I thought that was just so cool!

 

[spudnut]

I have a buddy who had one of his rifles wind up in the Henry Ford Museum and he only built it about three blocks away from it. :rotf:

 

[Wes/Tex]

I wasn't alone but that didn't make me happy.

One of those times when 'misery' really doesn't love company!!??

 

[ohio ramrod]

As a builder of custom made furniture I often "copy" antiques. About thirty five years ago I was doing a lot of custom work for a local shop. Until one of his customers found my stamp on the bottom of her "antique cabinet". He was passing my work off as true antiques. I still use the "old time" methods when requested but all of my work is clearly marked. :idunno:

 

[Woodyrock]

Pit sawing wood is not as ancient as most Americans would think. Probably still some being done in 'undeveloped countries. Pit sawing was still done in New Zealand for Kauri up to WWII. Think of the logistics of getting a big log to a sawmill as opposed to carrying plank out of the forest. High value timber is poached all over the world...and pit saws make very little noise. The cratewood I had came out of Asia in the seventies.
Woody

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

When renown period arm experts like Leonard Day proclaim the Newtowne musket is 'not what it is purported to be', as it wears a much later French barrel ... then who are any us mere mortals to say that it is indeed 'real'?

 

[Alden]

Len, who was one of two people approached to examine in detail for hours and reproduce the Newtowne Musket, is quite adamant and correct that it was a snaphaunce in any case so making a matchlock repop is fairly absurd and frankly insulting as a representation of what they claim it is. They have no idea when it became what is ultimately is!

 

[Dphar]

It never ceases to amaze me how well some fakes are made. It's almost to the point that I'm afraid to seriously look at any 'antique' gun, especially muzzleloaders.

I once learned that the (very) hard way. A guy strolled into my gun shop in Indiana (about 1971) and showed me some old, mostly junk, modern pistols. I made deals on a couple super cheap. Then he pulled out a flintlock pistol. Wow! :shocked2: He had my attention immediately With his permission I dissassembled it, looked at inside wood, how the screws were made, etc. I was convinced it was an original. Made him a deal but still for fairly big money. As soon as he left I called an acquaintence who was an avid collector and highly knowledgable. As soon as he walked in and saw it he said, "Oh, you got one of those also." He showed me exactly how it had been faked. Buried in dirt, acid on metal parts, etc. Great job of faking. He had suckered every dealer in southern Indiana with similar fakes. I wasn't alone but that didn't make me happy.

There are hordes of faked items. Tin ware (know a guy who put himself through college about 50 years ago making and selling "antique" tinware). Lots of it. Right now powder horns are so often faked that a friend of mine very well versed in such things told me he would not buy an "original" powderhorn. Almost all one might see are fakes.
Rifles? Pistols? Lots of fakes and remodeling and assembling of old parts to make a 18th c gun/rifle/pistol.
There was a man in the east in the 1920s-30s making powderhorns for museum display. Said in a letter found in the Museums paperwork that he could produce a horn from any era in about a month. So it came from a museum collection is this provenance?

Dan