early short starter

[Dean2]

...innocuous bit of historical trivia.

The devil IS in the details...

Apparently so from all indications on this thread :grin: still doesn't change my opinion on the subjects lack of world shaking importance. :slap: Keep on going though cause as i said, it is entertaining.

JDK

If people can get themselves so wound up on this subject as to get banned from the site, that is not the fault of the agitator. The agitators are just enjoying their own form of entertaining themselves. If you bait and no one bites then you have to change approaches. :hmm:

 

[jdkerstetter]

If people can get themselves so wound up on this subject as to get banned from the site, that is not the fault of the agitator.....

I was not blaming or defending either party. We all have character flaws and I.M.H.O. both the agitated and the agitator are merely displaying theirs. :wink:

It's shame when we loose anybody who has anything to contibute because they can't maintain their composure. Equally shameful are those who seek to instigate and agitate for their own enjoyment, especially when they have no dog in the hunt otherwise. Then we all loose. :shake:

One of the goals of this forum is the open sharing of information on traditional muzzleloading. As a consequence we have a diverse membership ranging from those who completely immerse themselves in the history to those who just want to challenge themselves on the range or in the woods.

Some build guns, some just load and shoot them and care not how they work or if they are a historically correct. Some just carry them as part of their kit as they seek to recreate historical periods or events.

I wouldn't walk into a primative camp and criticize whether or not one man's hunting shirt was appropriate to the period as that's not my area. But if asked I would go out of my way to ensure that the man's gun was as appropriate to the period as was possible to reproduce.

If only we could all learn from each other without criticizing each others choices on their desired level of involvement.

I now pass the soap box to anyone else that cares to climb on. :haha: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[FishDFly]

How do you plays "taps" on a key board, I do not know how?

 

[jdkerstetter]

I can type fast and without looking. That helps. :wink: Why, did I strike a chord? :haha: :haha: :haha: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tenngun]

Nothing to do with short starters ff Did they make military ramrods out of steel at this time? Or was it softer wrought iron. Would steel not have torn up a soft wrought iron barrel?

 

[tenngun]

The above was in response to coot last post on page 7... I didn't see page 8 until after I posted. :redface:

 

[Zonie]

The military ramrods were probably wrought iron.
Steel wasn't commonly used for parts that didn't require its special properties until after the Bessemer furnace was developed in the 1850's.

Reading thru the Handbook for Riflemen, (thanks for the page reference) I notice a few interesting things:

The grooves impression on the outside of the rifle ball makes it spin like an arrow.

Backwoodsmen commonly used the cupped hand with a ball in it and then covered it with powder to measure their powder charge.

The ball should be sized to "rest on the grooves, and require not much trouble to force it down, but not yet to pass without being forced."

The patch "Is a small piece of shammey (sic), or buck skin, or kid skin put round the ball before forcing it into the barrel...care should be taken that it be not too thick and defeat its purpose...it is used to take off from the windage, to retain the air, and the grease is used to facilitate the passage of the ball by diminishing the friction."

Either hat or leather pieces were used as wads which were positioned over the powder charge and over the ball if one was intending to march with the gun loaded. Linen, cotton, woolen cloth or paper could also be used for these wads.

I didn't see any further instructions on how to load a rifle.
There was no reference was made about using a short starter or any similar item to start the patched ball.
This doesn't totally rule out the use of something by the riflemen but it does seem the manual doesn't give any advice about what could be used or how to use it.

It does tell us however that washing your feet every morning in cold water makes the use of socks unnecessary.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Jeff, If you want to quote somebody's post then use the button in the bottom corner of it between the one with the "!" and "reply"....the one that looks sorta like 2 sheets of paper.

It will automatically insert their post in yours between with quote = followed by the poster's moniker in brackets and /quote in brackests. Hope that helps. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Bill Bizoff]

I don’t have it in front of me right now, but there is a quote in R. Gale’s “A Solder Like Way” from a British General in the 1730s. It went something like this. “If there is too much steel in the rammers they break, too little and they bend, and in rain or a fog they rust in the pipes and are useless”
Bill

 

[Claude Mathis]

Let's stick to the topic, which is documentation for short starters.

 

[FishDFly]

Read Ned Robets book, The Muzzle-loading Cap Lock Rifle, pages 88,89 and 91, he discusses loading blocks, short starters and bags.

Enjoy, his writings pre-dates us folks here.

 

[Black Hand]

Read Ned Robets book, The Muzzle-loading Cap Lock Rifle, pages 88,89 and 91, he discusses loading blocks, short starters and bags.

Enjoy, his writings pre-dates us folks here.

The earliest I found for this work is 1956. Unless he quotes original primary documentation, his information is still opinion (publishing opinion doesn't make it a historical fact). The fact that his writing may pre-date us is irrelevant...

 

[tenngun]

I was just about to say That Ned Roberts Book was not an early work. Roberts was writing from experinces in the 1870s and 80s,well past the time when most of us reenact here. When Black Hand pointed it out first.His book was a good reference for m l but not a work on historic uses.
How ever it does make one wonder why these inventions would be needed and used after the age of M L came to an end.

 

[Black Hand]

Tenngun,
There appears to have been a resurgence in the use of muzzleloaders (at least in the east) after the civil war (primarily smaller caliber). All the examples of short-starters and bullet-blocks that I've seen appear to date to this period (and after)(Several examples were part of the Tom Wnuck estate/auction). In reality, the "age of the muzzleloader" never really ended...
BH

 

[FishDFly]

Read the book.

I have my short starter and I am not going to give it up.

 

[Black Hand]

Read the book.

I have my short starter and I am not going to give it up.

Good for you! :thumbsup:
No one is forcing you to do anything...

 

[54ball]

Good for you!
No one is forcing you to do anything...

The short starter is a useful tool in loading a rifle with tight loads. This comes from Late Nineteenth Century target matches along with the false muzzle.

So far there is no proof that the short starter was used on the American frontier from 1760-1830.

If you want to use a short starter fine, I do at times but not when I do a historical demo.

To say,

"This is a short starter that the early American riflemen used on the frontier"

could very well be an untrue statement based on documentation and lack of evidence.

To say

" This is a short starter I find to be a useful tool. There is no evidence that it was used in the period but I like it and find it so useful that I think maybe it could have been used"

is a true statement. It is made clear that in your opinion it could have been used not that it was used.

See what we are trying to say?

 

[rich pierce]

(Not to anyone in particular) There are no "short starter" police. Nobody is going to make anybody load this way or that way unless you are in an outfit that has outlined procedures. It confuses me that folks cannot accept that it is unlikely, at best,that the way we were taught to load a longrifle does not duplicate what was done historically in the colonial and early Federal periods (essentially the flintlock period) here in America.

"It musta been done that way because that's the way I do it and like it" is not very convincing to me.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Read Ned Robets book, The Muzzle-loading Cap Lock Rifle, pages 88, 89 and 91, he discusses loading blocks, short starters and bags.

Enjoy, his writings pre-dates us folks here.

For myself, I will only accept primary documentation, not opinions, no matter how credible they may seem to others.

This is true for me no matter what the subject. I have seen authors say, "They most likely did or had X." Although that may be the most educated of guesses - It's still a guess. :wink:

 

[tenngun]

I don't think they spung up full grown like athena form the head of Zeus. I do not see why everyone could be happy as clams with stugeling to load a tight patch or putting up with poorer accuracy of a looser patch. Then suddenly need one in Roberts time, When breachloading guns were much cheaper then the fine guns Roberts shot. I'll call mine a mallet...well documented to my time...and have to offer no other explaination.When all is said and done we only have to sastisfy ourselfs with what we accept as proof.I can ask my self if I believe what I am saying. My inner voice knows the answear. So I mislaed no one if I speak what I feell is the truth.