Early German flintlocks

[Story]

Italian bird gun -

A flintlock shotgun,

Antonio Franzino, Gardone, around 1680. Octagonal barrel becoming faceted after a baluster. Smooth bore in 15 mm calibre with a brass front sight. Signed "Antonio Franzino" on the breech. Iron flintlock, the cambered lockplate is inscribed "Fran. Garatto". Walnut fullstock with cut iron furniture and a side plate in the shape of entwined vines. Wooden ramrod. Length 133 cm. Antonio Franzino, Gardone Val Trompia, ca. 1660-97. Francesco Garatto, Brecia, ca. 1640-90.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/28378.jpg

 

[Stophel]

That gun is nothing compared to what some Italian gunsmiths were doing. Usually you see the stepped wrist/heavily fluted butt designs. Some of these guns have triggerguards made of wood...and they're not add-on pieces like on German guns. They would actually carve the triggerguards directly out of the stock blank itself. Really incredible stuff.

 

[John Tice]

So then German gunmakers were influenced by both the Dutch and Italians then? Do we know what these Liegeois gunlocks looked like in the 18th century? Were they exporting just locks and barrels and/or assembled muskets. I'm curious if they were more like Dutch locks or French.

 

[Mike Brooks]

So then German gunmakers were influenced by both the Dutch and Italians then?

And don't forget the French. The French were the driving force in styles thru at least 1770 or so, untill they went a little flaky.... :youcrazy:
The Liege gun manufactories were making and exporting all manner of parts and compleated guns.

 

[rmg]

Thank You for this discussion. My original ancestor in this country came from Germany in 1750. I thought if I ever needed a persona, what a place to start. I always had a hard time figuring out a gun, did he bring one with him, or did he purchase one here. Clothing is another issue, I always read about English or French, but not German, thanks for that info also..... I got some books to find, and more reading to do.
He was of the Reformed Church as far as I can tell, lived near Dover Pa (close to York) then settled in Shade Gap as a farmer. 2 of his sons (one would have been my grandfather, way back), served in the Cumberland Militia. Pretty cool what you find on the internet. Thanks
Rich Goshorn

 

[John Tice]

I would like to thank the contributors as well, especially Fat Dutch Man and Story. The early German settlers to America are a poorly understood and under-appreciated part of our Nation's history I think. I would like to see reenactors portray them in the future. I read once that the descendants of Germans make up the largest ethnic group in the US. German contributions to America go far beyond Christmas trees, hot dogs, hamburgers, pretzels, sauerkraut, rye whiskey, the beer industry and the rucksack. If you have German ancestry you may find it very rewarding reconstructing your family tree. I traced my German line back to a private in the New York lines during the Revolution. He was a simple farmer who had settled in the Hudson River Valley and who had married a woman who was part Dutch and part Montauk Indian. I think every link to the past has a story well worth learning and telling.

Here is an excerpt from what J. Hector Crevcecour wrote about the Germans he knew in Pennsylvania and published in 1781:

"Their astonishment at their first arrival from Germany is very great- it is to them a dream; the contrast must be very powerful indeed; they observe their countrymen flourishing in everyplace; they travel through whole counties where not a word of English is spoken; and in the names and the language of the people, they retrace Germany. They have been a useful acquisition to this continent, and to Pennsylvania in particular; to them it owes some share of its prosperity; to their mechanical knowledge and patience it owes the finest mills in all America, the best teams of horses, and many other advantages. The recollection of their former poverty and slavery never quits them as long as they live."

Certainly a good philosophy for all who live here in our great Country.

 

[Gaze]

J. Hector Crevcecour wrote about the Germans he knew in Pennsylvania in 1781:

"... to their mechanical knowledge and patience it owes the finest mills in all America, the best teams of horses, and many other advantages. The recollection of their former poverty and slavery never quits them as long as they live."

Free men quickly rise to their genetic level; they are not held back by anything but their genetics. Look at Ohio in 1776 and again 1876 --- from the Stone Age to cutting-edge industrial revolution. When tools became machines, it guaranteed the obsolescence of the flintlock.
ff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Free men quickly rise to their genetic level . . .

Genetic level? :shocking: I take it you're of the nature over nurture school of sociology and behavior. I hope I misunderstand your reference.

Genetic determinism and eugenics are not accepted beliefs among modern social scientists.

 

[benvenuto]

heres an interesting site I found
http://www.horseshoe.cc/pennadutch/history/

To summarise very briefly, many of the Germans who settled in Pennsylvania were from the Palatinate. However, for a long time the Palatinate was a refuge for german speaking religious minorities from Switzerland, Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia and even Transylvannia. The population of the Palatinate had been reduced by 90% during the 30 years war and there was an active campaign to resettle protestants there. The final straw for these persecuted people was the French invasion of 1707, whose stated goal was to devastate the Palatinate. With the help of their bretheren in the Netherlands and England (mainly Mennonites), a mass exodus was organised with most of the refugees ending up in the Americas. I think the total was over 35,000, and at once stage (1711?) 18,000 people were living under canvas around London in the most squalid conditions. By the 1780's conditions had stabilised in the Palatinate and most german emmigrants were from other areas of Germany.

As far as military service goes, the Mennonites who originally settled in Georgia resettled in Pennsylvania after refusing to serve in the Militia. Other "Palatines" were not so pacifistic and enrolled in the Pennsylvania militia. No mention so far of any guns or gunmakers in the ships manifests I briefly looked at - but its a complex subject worthy of a lifetimes study i'm sure.

 

[Stophel]

Being pacifist does not necessarily mean that you wouldn't own a gun. Every Mennonite/Amish male I know hunts! I just fixed one Amish guy's Traditions gun the other day! I'm "semi-pacifistic" myself (I may be antagonistic and argumentative, but I ain't gonna fight you over it... eace

The earliest known gunsmith in Lancaster county was a man by the name of Becker (I think) in 1720. PROBABLY a Mennonite, just by default. There is the old story of Martin Meili as a gunsmith slightly earlier (he definitely was a Mennonite), but there is no proof that he actually was a gunsmith (a blacksmith perhaps...)


Some Anabaptist books..
"An Introduction to Mennonite History", by Cornelius J. Dyck

"The Anabaptist Story: an Introduction to sixteenth-century Anabaptism", by Wm. R. Estep.

"The Great Restoration", by Meic Pearse.

And the massive 5 volume set "the Mennonite Encyclopedia" (I probably wouldn't have gotten it otherwise, but there was a sale...).

I just got "The Martyr's Mirror" (in English). "Der Martyrer Spiegel". This was the largest book printed in Colonial America. Beginning in 1748, the Mennonites had the Ephrata brethren print this book in German, translated from the original Dutch "Het blootige Schauplatz" (or something like that), which means "the bloody theater". It give accounts of some of the many many thousands of Anabaptists who lost their lives (in some very gruesome ways) for their faith. It will just about make you cry.

The "Palatinate", which was the most devastated area in all of Europe after the war, had been resettled by the Anabaptists and others (as was stated) only to be forcibly removed shortly thereafter. They had turned the ruined country into a productive and prosperous area. They were a people known for their advanced agricultural skills.

By the middle of the 18th century, Germans were coming here from all over, but the name "palatine" stuck. I have seen one period document speaking of an immigrant who was "a Palatine from Holstein". ::

 

[bnail]

Free men quickly rise to their genetic level . . .

Genetic level? :shocking: I take it you're of the nature over nurture school of sociology and behavior. I hope I misunderstand your reference.

Genetic determinism and eugenics are not accepted beliefs among modern social scientists.

Gabby may have misstated with the "genetics" part but he was merely stating what Plato advocated in his Ladder metaphor. Not every man can rise to philosopher King.
I'm a nurture kind of guy; I've never bought into the tabula rasa theory myself. Though one cannot deny the importance that early influences have on human beings, I believe that we do start life with certain predispositions.

In Gabby's defense, I'd like to think that he merely meant that humans are bound by their natural limitations.

 

[benvenuto]

Being pacifist does not necessarily mean that you wouldn't own a gun. Every Mennonite/Amish male I know hunts! I just fixed one Amish guy's Traditions gun the other day! I'm "semi-pacifistic" myself (I may be antagonistic and argumentative, but I ain't gonna fight you over it...

Indeed! I'm sure that many moravians and mennonites, when not being industrious farmers or attending to the lords business would be out hunting for food (or getting rid of animal pests raiding their barns and fields).

 

[Story]

Interesting article on the Klett gunmakers of Suhl.
http://www.buechsenmacher.de/historyen.html
Relevant passages:

Only after the decree in 1710 brought back reputation to the gunsmiths of Suhl, which only permitted persons to manufacture and trade guns, which belonged to the guilds of bore smiths and gunsmiths.

During the Nordic War (1700 - 1721) the Swedish Colonel G