Early German flintlocks

[John Tice]

Does anyone have an idea what kind of gun a Palatine German immigrant to New York or Pennsylvania would have possessed in the 1709-1730 period?

 

[Stophel]

That's pretty early...As a general rule, the earlier you go with German rifles, the "plumper" they are.

Most of the earlier 18th century German rifles I have photos of are from Prussia or other parts of the northeast...

Shumway illustrated a gun by Johann Wagner in Cronach (which is in Franken...due east of the Pfalz along the Main river), dated 1722 (Muzzleblasts July 1991). I have photos of a couple of other guns by Wagner that are essentially the same as this one, and have seen another gun that was identical to this one. (one super nice one was made for Frederick the Great...Wagner was a well known gunsmith) This is as good a representative gun as any.

In May, 1994, he illustrated a neat German rifle from about 1725, though it looks rather earlier.

There are several late 17th century rifles from Elsasz (Strassburg was forcibly taken by the French in 1697) that are most attractive. I'll try to copy off some photos tomorrow...

 

[Okwaho]

Assuming of course that the emigrant brought a gun with him then I would agree with Dutchman but I doubt very many of these emigrants brought guns with them.The majority of emigrants from the German city states as well as France and the low countries was the peasant class many of which were fleeing religious persecution such as the French Hugenots after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes by Louis XIV in 1685.Ownership of Guns in Continental Europe was pretty well limited to the Royalty,Nobility,and the upper middle classes although in the German city states I believe{unless corrected by the Dutchman}there were professional hunters called Jaegers who possessed guns.
Tom Patton

 

[rich pierce]

Being from the Mohawk Valley in NY state, near Palatine Bridge, I've often wondered if there were any rifles brought there early by the Palatine "Germans" who settled there before the Revolution. The existing accounts do not document what sort of guns they had or even if they were well armed, outside of those serving in militia. There is little evidence that any were rifle builders. It may very well be that few were skilled artisans. Many of the original pioneer families still live in that area of the Mohawk Valley, toward Herkimer.

 

[brubincam]

did people actually bring their personal firearms with them when ariving to this continent?

 

[hawkeye1755]

That's a good question.
You see alot of German Guns from the aristocracy ,inlaid with silver and gold wires , expansive Jaeger Rifles , but you see
never in ordinary or poor gun from that time.
I think that most of the emigrants doesn't had a gun.As Okwago
write they come from the lower class.They were poor people.
I don't know the prices in Germany in that time ,
but i know the a Tulle Musket costs ca. 22 livre
and a Brown Bess ca. 22 shillings. A rifel ca.146 shillings.
I think they buy their first guns in the states and that are ordinary fowlers.

 

[Stophel]

The general population were (generally) allowed ownership of firearms. In many instances, it was encouraged. There are LOTS of relatively plain German guns...they just don't get "published", SO, when people look at gun books, all they see are the super-fancy guns and they think that ALL European guns MUST have been made only for the nobility, when that just isn't so. This might be said for France and perhaps even England, but not so much for the German states.

There are just TOO MANY German guns of the 18th century that still exist for them to have been owned only by the nobility. There are also way too many gunsmiths if they only produced guns for the noblemen. It seems there was a gunsmith behind every tree. The lists of known gunsmiths in the German states during the 18th century are enormous.

 

[John Tice]

These are interesting ideas. I know that when people made the early voyages to Virginia and Massachusetts they had lists of the provisions they needed to bring, which included long lists of various firearms, weapons, etc. some are very specific right down to how many pounds of gunpowder they needed to bring. I have been wondering if the Palatines and other Germans had similar provisions lists that included guns.

Are there German smoothbores at this time?

Even by the mid 18th century thousands of Palatines had already arrived to New York and Pennsylvania, as some of you have mentioned.
With all these people at least some might of had guns, maybe?

 

[Stophel]

For the earliest years of the 18th century, there seem to be fewer German firearms that still exist. There SEEMS to be a sort-of "explosion" of firearms in about the 1730's. Why, (or even if this is actually true) I couldn't say. MOST of the old guns I get to see or have photos of seem to be from the 1740's-1760's. It's kinda wierd. Maybe it was cost, maybe it was political reasons, I don't know. If at all possible, I'm sure one of the main items one would bring to the new wilderness would be your gun. I know that by the middle of the 18th century (the time of the "redemptioners"...a phrase I don't fully understand), many of the Germans that came to America were lucky to leave the port of Rotterdam with the clothes on their backs. They were ripped off in every way imagineable.

I remember a quotation from SOMEWHERE that after leaving the continent, the ships carrying the Swiss/Germans to America would stop in England, and this was their last chance to buy provisions like seeds, tools, and gunpowder.

Also, in the earliest part of the 18th century the "Palatines", generally Anabaptists, of course, may not have been able to bring guns with them. If they ever had any, they may have been confiscated...along with most of the rest of their property. That is why they came here.

I know nothing about German immigration to New York. In PA, the earliest known gunsmith in Lancaster county (THE place for the palatines) was in something like 1720, and if I remember correctly, his name was Becker. There were several others shortly thereafter. I know nothing about possible gunsmiths in Germantown, PA, the original settlement of the Mennonites/Swiss Brethren.

I still haven't gotten around to photos.

Go to www.Hermannn-historica.com and look at their auction catalogs. They have 2 or 3 on line. There is a wealth of knowledge to be had from these folks (and, you can buy a gun too!)

 

[benvenuto]

The general population were (generally) allowed ownership of firearms. In many instances, it was encouraged. There are LOTS of relatively plain German guns...they just don't get "published", SO, when people look at gun books, all they see are the super-fancy guns and they think that ALL European guns MUST have been made only for the nobility, when that just isn't so. This might be said for France and perhaps even England, but not so much for the German states.

There are just TOO MANY German guns of the 18th century that still exist for them to have been owned only by the nobility. There are also way too many gunsmiths if they only produced guns for the noblemen. It seems there was a gunsmith behind every tree. The lists of known gunsmiths in the German states during the 18th century are enormous.

I agree!
We musn't forget all the shooting clubs and associations in Germany. If I recall correctly they date back to the way towns raised militia from the different trade guilds in time of war?
Hunting stags may have been limited to nobles and professional hunters, but the rest of the population were encouraged in target shooting and hunting for small game.
I see ordinary guns all the time on Herman Historica. Sometimes they are hidden under the percussion listing as rifles from the 1720's or 1740's have been "updated" to keep them in service.
the thing I am wondering is wether Anabaptists and other religious minorities were allowed to own arms, either under their religion or under law. (I'm sure they were allowed under protestant rule, but not under catholic surely?)

 

[Story]

I thought the Palatines were just a fraction of the early 18th century German emmigration?
http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/imde/germchro.html

 

[John Tice]

Yes, my understanding is that many of the early German immigrants, ca 1710-1750s came from a lot of different states and Bishoprics in that southwestern area of Germany. I didn't mean to leave any groups out, historians seem to often refer to all these early Germans as "Palatines." This seems to have started in 1709 when a large group of refugees were living outside of London in camps waiting for passage to America. That's what the English called them and it seems to have stuck (my mother's ancestors came from these people).

I got my hands on book called "Curiuse Nachtricht von Pennsylvania" by Daniel Falkner, it was first published in 1702, I have a later translated edition. Falkner had been in Pennsylvania several years earlier and when he returned to Germany he wrote a book for others who were thinking of emigrating to America. In it he wrote about the Indians, the fauna, prospects and what a family should take and have when they were going to settle in America.

In a section he wrote called "Such goods as will be of service if taken to Pennsylvania he wrote among other things- "powder and shot, also sizes of shot and dust shot to shoot ducks."

Later in a "List of such Goods, as are acceptable in Pennsylvania, according to the remembrance of Herr Falkner" is listed among many things "powder and shot, no bullets, but bar lead, pigeon, duck, goose and heavy shot." Finally toward the end of this long list is "Good long guns that will throw shot far and well."

While this list states what should ideally have been brought, this doesn't mean they did. But I would think that while these German families likely brought some goods and mostly coinage (if they had any), some guns must have made it over from Germany and some guns must have been made early on by German gunsmiths in traditional forms. While there has been a lot written about the jagers, I'd sure like to know what a real German fowler of the 1710-1750 period looked like. I'm sure the Germans bought plenty of English guns or Dutch guns from those departure points, as well as when they arrived in New York and Pennsylvania, but I would think that there were some early "German fowlers" around at some time. Now wouldn't that be a great building project. I don't know if anyone has ever done that. What would the fowler stocks have looked like?

 

[Stophel]

I once took all my books and auction catalogs and counted up all the German rifles and smoothbores and came up with a ratio of about 60-40 rifles to smoothbores. In "real life" I actually see MORE German smoothbores than rifles!!!

Here's a German bird gun from about 1710 (judging by the lock...the gun could well be later, however). It is marked on the inside of the lockplate "SVLA" for the city of Suhl. The butt is done in the Spanish style, as was done from time to time. It is VERY lightweight, handles BEAUTIFULLY and is right at .50 caliber (that's right).

http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks/?action=view&current=IM000024.jpg

Hit this link and cycle through the photos by hitting "next". Hit "previous" too to see a smoothbore from about 1760, in not nearly as good a state of repair.

I'll get some more photos soon.

 

[Stophel]

From 1697 or so, when Germantown was founded, up until about the 1720's, the vast majority of Germans in Pennsylvania were Anabaptists from the Pfalz (the "Palatinate") and Switzerland, and also from other SW German areas (Elsasz, etc.) After then, the Germans were coming from all over, and by the 1750's the Anabaptists were outnumbered by Lutherans and Reformed and other groups.

It's been a while since I read it, but a good book to get on the subject is the old "standard" "German and Swiss settlements of Pennsylvania" by Oscar Kuhns. It is easy to find on the internet and cheap enough. My copy is from 1901. I think it was written in 1898 or something.

 

[Story]

A Flintlock Shotgun,

Johann Jorg Bislinger, M

 

[Stophel]

I can read every word of that last post!!! I may not be able to converse well in German, but I know all my "gun words"!!! :: The Bislinger gun, though rather finer than "average" is a good example of style.

"Boehmen" is "Bohemia", the western part of what is now the Czech Republic. This area (and Maehren..."Moravia") were ruled by the Austrians for a LONG time. The cities had German names and lots of ethnic Germans lived there (and surely still do). I usually class these as "German guns" as well, since they were built with this influence. Almost always, the maker's names on these guns are German (though whether or not they were all really German, I couldn't say) It is not common to find Czech names on guns, but SOMETIMES you will see them.

The majority of German smoothbore guns of the 18th century are halfstock. Long barrels and everything. There are also a lot of fullstock German smoothbore guns which might be described as "general purpose shotguns". (a lot of these are straight rifled). These are often in the 34" to 42" barrel range. When I look at 18th century German hunting pictures, almost always the hunter is shooting this type of gun.

 

[John Tice]

Now I'm learnin' ! Thanks for posting the pics "dikNederlanderman" and Story. :thanks:The butt seems thick on most of them. Predominately half stocks that early, that is interesting. Was this to simply save on wood, (economics) or is it more stylistic? They also seem to have liked the swivels for the slings a lot too. The bulbous locks of the 1710 and the 1694 guns remind me of Dutch locks. Was there a lot of ideas exchanged between the German and Dutch gunbuilders? I read in Neumann's book that the Hessian troops sometimes had muskets purchased for them directly from the Dutch (as did the English early on).

 

[Story]

Described as a Dutch/German fowler.
http://www.cottoneauctions.com/images/TomWnuck/long%20guns/90.jpg

The early 18th cent. fowlers on the Herman site all seemed to resemble half-stock versions of the Dutch 1710 musket - the oct-to-round barrel (sometimes longer than the musket version), the trigger guard and Queen Anne style lock.

That would make sense, if the flintlock was *the* leading edge of firearms technology, for a fowler to be simply a lightened version of a musket in a smaller caliber (like 20 gauge).

 

[Stophel]

I could have used the handle "der Dicker Deutscher" or "Fett' Deutscher", but "Fatdutchman" sounds better (taken from the old PA German polka band "Six Fat Dutchmen") Woo-hoo-hoo!

Half stocks on bird guns were taken from the fine Spanish and Italian bird guns, which were the finest on the continent. It was intended to cut down on the forward weight of the gun. And it does. These two of mine are rather lightweight (the earlier one weighs about 6 pounds!!!)

It is a rare German gun indeed that was made without sling swivels.

You will see a lot of military muskets labeled as "German/Dutch", it is often hard to tell the difference. The Dutch were armsmakers to the world, and governments from all over contracted with Dutch makers for military arms.

Here's a gun by Hauschka of Wolfenbuettel, dated 1733, made for Frederick the Great of Prussia.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/?action=view&current=Hauschka1.jpg

Also look at http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Jaeger
for some period illustrations. Note the engraving of the "Bayrische Hiesel" (it's Bavarian...I have NO idea what this means. It appears to be a sort of folk-hero Jesse James type thing. In 1772 a poacher and his merry band of roustabouts were arrested by soldiers...That's about all I can get out of it. Note all the civilians standing around watching as the criminals are loaded on a sled and hauled away. They all have their guns with them! I like the one guy in the background leaning on his long barreled gun and wearing the hunting cap (bill and ear flaps). Note also the man with the short rifle speaking to the military officer.

oops, Well, the picture might be too small...but you get the idea.

 

[Okwaho]

Don't forget about the Liegeois guns sold to all comers in 17th and 18th century Europe with many destined for trans shipment to New France

"in 1632 Jacques de Chastenet the lord of Puysegur is ordered by Louis XIII to purchase four thousand muskets...He procures them in Liege and Utrecht,has the firearms proved in Holland and from there takes them by boat to[url] Rouen.In[/url] 1689 William III purchases ten thousand Liegeois muskets and rifles...Four years later Liege supplies firearms to the Tsar Peter the[url] Great.In[/url] 1713 the king of Prussia orders eighteen thousand Ligeois rifles and eight thousand pairs of pistols...there is no end to the examples that could be quoted;they are legion"."Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking" by Claude Gaier P.57. Mr. Gaier was and may still be the Director of the Liege Musee d'Armes.

I have seen a record of "rifles" and Fusils fin sent to a merchant in Quebec City from a merchant in Larochelle,France in 1702 and have wondered about those rifles and fine and very fine fusils,nos.3,4,and 5 along with some "carabines".Another quote is very interesting,"Four years later[1694],an English document states that American trading posts established in present New York state were selling long guns to the Indians,the barrels and locks of which were made in Liege and purchased in Amsterdam",Claude Gaier above.
Gaier states that Liege was sending trade guns to New France and these are in addition to those made in France and I am starting to research the trade guns from Liege. This research should be most interesting.
Tom Patton