Drum vs. Patent Breech

[SavageArcher]

I was under the impression that patent breeches were more sure of ignition than the drum and nipple set up. I have to use Pyrodex most of the time because of supply issue and I can't afford to order enough GOEX to offset the HAZMAT fee. Sucks being poor. Anyway someone brought to my attention that the drum, despite the 90 degree turn, may be better because of the larger channel compared to a patent breech. I'm not sure about this, so I put to my trusted experts here to help me out.

I'm want to determine which might be better for use with phony bp. I know mule ears and underhammers have a direct shot to the main charge, but then if I could afford a gun with one of those locks I could afford to order a bulk load of GOEX. Right now I'm stuck with what I got which ain't much.

 

[Le Grand]

Boonedocker, Be aware, all patent breeches are not the same. Some have an angled flash channel and some don't. Those that don't have their flash channel at 90-degrees just like the drum and nipple. Also, a patent breech with the flash channel angled forward, toward the powder, can be drilled out so it will accept the Pyrodex that you feel you must use. In that case, the patent breech will have great advantages over the drum and nipple. Le Grand

 

[jtmattison]

My only experience with this is I had a CVA with a drum and it misfired constantly and became clogged up all the time. I now shoot all Lyman rifles with a patent breech and have never, I honestly say never had a misfire.

HD

 

[Charles/NM]

My mid-1970s vintage patent breech T/C Hawken has NEVER failed to fire BP, Pyrodex or Triple 7. And that's with a several brands and ages of percussion caps. I currently use Remington hot caps, a T/C Hot Shot nipple and Wally World Pyrodex because I am either too poor or too cheap to buy enough BP to make the Hazmat fee seem reasonable.

 

[renovato]

It might be easier to just swap the nipples for musket cap nipples. You get a lot more flame from those. I have burned a lot of Pyrodex through Traditions and T/C guns and never had a misfire though. Are you sure the nipple and flast channel are clear? Maybe there's some fouling that's partially blocking the channel inside the breech?

 

[Lone Carabiner]

I've got a CVA and I expierenced that problem until I discovered 2 things. 1- after dumping the pyro (or BP) in whack the breech area a couple times with the side of your hand to knock some powder in the channel before you seat the projetile (this packs the powder). 2-about every 20 shots I pull the drum screw and clean the channel, then blow the debris out. Mine is bad to foul the flash channel, and I switched to a 'Hot-Shot' nipple. No problems since and that with regular CCI caps. Remingtom has a new cap out that I'm going to after my supply of CCi's are shot up. It has more flame to it.

 

[bavarialand]

CVA factory Drums are notoriouse for misfires. i took mine off and got an open end after market drum from Dixie. no problems since. Dave :v

 

[Mad Professor]

I've got a CVA and I expierenced that problem until I discovered 2 things. 1- after dumping the pyro (or BP) in whack the breech area a couple times with the side of your hand to knock some powder in the channel before you seat the projetile (this packs the powder). 2-about every 20 shots I pull the drum screw and clean the channel, then blow the debris out. Mine is bad to foul the flash channel, and I switched to a 'Hot-Shot' nipple. No problems since and that with regular CCI caps. Remingtom has a new cap out that I'm going to after my supply of CCi's are shot up. It has more flame to it.

Another way to clear the flask channel, after swabbing (which may push debris into the breach area) snap a cap.

I did this in the winter and at times was surprised by the amount of manure that came out of the barrel and showed up nicely on the snow covered ground. This also gave me a feel for how often this needs to be done with a particular load/gun. In most cases only after several and in some cases after many shots.

Of course you go through a few more caps..........

 

[Plains99]

Drum and bolster percussion ignition systems were the first move from the flintlock system because it was easy to convert them. Many of the imports use it because they also market flintlocks and it is an easy (less expensive) alteration. If drum and bolster was better the military would have never switched to patent breech ignition systems.
I have patent breech rifles that consistently ignite Pyrodex with no problems but I have to use FFg in all of my drum & bolster guns to get the same level of ignition dependability.

 

[Minuteman]

Could someone post some pics of the two different kinds. I don't know the difference.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

My only experience with this is I had a CVA with a drum and it misfired constantly and became clogged up all the time. I now shoot all Lyman rifles with a patent breech and have never, I honestly say never had a misfire.

HD

Someone said "not all patent breeches are the same" and I should mention that not all drum systems are the same. Many of the inports, including Perersoli, use a wierd combination drum and patent breech. The breech plug is extra long, has a powder chamber drilled into the front and the drum threads through the barrel wall and into the breechplug to the chamber. Very hard to clean and very quick to foul, stupid idea, combining the worst of both systems.
The production rifles with patent breeches such as T/C, Lyman, Investarms, Cabels, ect. all have a 90 degree flash channel, same as a drum, and usually that channel is both longer and of smaller diameter than the passage through a nipple drum. They drill the flash channel the same as the clean-out screw and a #8 tap drill is smaller than 1/8". No way Pyrodex RS nor even 2f black will flow through that long narrow passage to reach the nipple, so the fire from the cap must pass through to reach the powder, thus weak ignition.
Most comercial nipple drums are also drilled the same way, they may step up to a 10/32 clean-out but still just run the tap drill all the way through so you have a flash channel only a bit over 1/8". However, that is easily remedied by re-drilling the channel larger from the open end to the nipple seat. With such a drum then properly installed ahead of the breechplug, even the coarse grained RS Pyro will flow into the drum right under the nipple and ignition is as fast as an underhammer or mule ear.
The patent breech is stronger, if you're interested in what it takes to blow a gun up, but a properly installed drum is more than strong enough for any load a sane person would actually fire. :grin:

 

[SavageArcher]

Thanks for all the replies, its always a pleasure to pick the minds of those with more experience than myself.

 

[crockett]

Minute man: The side drum is what you see on the typical percussion rifle sold in sporting goods stores. The patent breech is a breech plug with a dished out area or "snail" inwhich the nipple is centered. From the nipple to the bore is a straight hole, theoretically giving better ignition.
On either system if you swab between shots and push a bunch of crud down the bore you can plug up the hole. If you swab between shots, snap a cap to clear out the crud. One reason some folks blow down the bore rather than swab is to eliminate this problem but to each his own.

 

[Minuteman]

Thank ye kindly, Crockett. :grin:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Afternoon Boonedocker,

Frequently, misfires in percussion rifles are due to internal design features regardless of whether or not a patten breech or drum and nipple design is used.

I have just returned,unused, a very popular custom Hawken patent breech to the maker becuse of an ignition with my friend, Rabbit03's new Hawken rifle, "Big 58"

This breech is probably the best quality and properly correct Hawken breech of it's type available today. The exterior casting is superb, and the fit-up of the tang and breech is first rate. The threads are properly cut and square to the breech shoulder.

Yet inside, there is, in IMO, a design error. Elsewhere on the Forum, Toney briefly described the ignition problems we experienced with his new, "Big 58".

Here are the specific details, and they apply to my Hawken breech from the same company.

To begin with, the junction or intersection of the tap-drill hole for the nipple and the flash hole to the internal powder chamber is extremely restricted, almost non-existent. It appears the nipple tap drill hole was not drilled deep enough to completely break into the flash hole leading to the powder chamber.

This is a fault that should be easily corrected at the factory before the tap drill hole is threaded for the nipple.

In the case of Toney's rifle, I was able to use a very small diamond-imppregnated bit and Dremel Tool to enlarge this opening to a much larger size. The Dremel Tool was used because of the concern a drill bit might "run-out and damage the the breech threads for the nipple.

This alteration was succesful, but did not completely stop the hang-fires and no-fires. Since we were working on a short time frame, we took the expedient route and vented the breech. This has solved 95-97 percent of the problem, and Rabbit03 has has excellant success on the competition line with his "Big 58".

Pesonally, I do not like a vented breech or drum.

However, in the hunting field, only 100 percent sureness of ignition is acceptable. We are not yet assured of that with Toney's rifle.

Since the intervening time spent working on Toney' ignition problem, I have spent time studying my own Hawken breech plug and believe another modification in design might completely solve the rest of the hang-fire/no-fire problem.

The powder chamber inside the external breech threads is drilled and finish to a very shallow length or depth, whichever term you prefer.

This creates a very long flash hole between the nipple and the back of the breech plug powder chamber. In my IMO, this flash hole is way too long and promotes powder fouling blockage in the flash hole. This is the reason the venting of the breech worked so well. The back pressure of the powder charge keeps blowing the fouling out of the flash hole back through the vent hole. Well..., at least it does 95-96 percent of the time.

Again IMO, by redrilling the powder chamber deeper, maybe as deep as the length of the breech plug thread tenon, the length of the flask hole will be greatly shortened. This cannot but help improve the ignition and also shorten the ignition time.

Of course there is a safety factor to consider with this particular manufacterer's breech.

Got to cut this short right now. We are starting to have rain and lightening, and need to shut this computer down.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

(To be continued)

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All, again,

The rain and lighting has passed, and the rain was indeed welcome. It has been a long. dry, hot summmer here in Texas this year.

Anyway back to the discussion at hand, The subject was about modifying the depth of the powder chamber in my Hawken breech plug and a safety concern.

In this particular breech plug, the diameter of the powder chamber is very large, but safe since it is only drilled to a depth of only one forth or one third of the overall length of the thread tenon. To maintain this diameter for the full length of the tenon would create a wall a powder wall thickness too thin to suit my idea of a safe design.

There is no reason that drilling the powder deeper with a smaller diameter drill, thus increasing the the thickness of the powder chamber walls, would have a detrimental effect on ignition. The two diameter powder chamber might look a bit strange, but I can live with that, if ignition is improved and dependable.

While I have not examined every Hawken style patten breech plug on the market, past and present, experience with three other breech plugs that incorporate my ideas lead me to believe that my modification ideas are sound.

One breech plug is the L&R. This breech plug has a deeply drilled powder chamber, thus shortening the flash hole length, and a nice large transition hole at the junction of the threaded nipple hole and the flash hole leading to the powder chamber.

Two other rifles with breech plugs matching my ideas ideas are my 1981 Uberti Santa Fe Hawken and my Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle. The Browning has a cone shaped powder chamber.

None of these rifles are vented, and all have never given me problems with a hang-fire or no-fire.

The Thompson- Center breech plugs I have examined also have deep drilled powder chambers, short flash holes and a large hole at the junction of the nipple hole and flash hole.

The T-C rifle owners that I know, who maintain and clean their rifles with the flush tube method, be it water or a modern solvent/cleaner do not experience ignition problems. Of course that can be said for any patten breech type of muzzle loading rifle or pistol.

When I returned my Hawken patten breech to the manufacturer, all of my above statements were included in a letter stated to be one of constructive criticisms. Since then an Email has been received from the manufacturer thanking me for a courteous and professionally written letter, and my breech plug would be properly examined and evaluated.

Whether or not, my suggestions will be incorporated remains to be seen. If necessary, I will make these modifications myself, know full well that will negate any manufacturer's warranty or legal responsibility.

As you can see Boonedocker, just having a patten breech is no guarante of swift and positive ignition. Internal design is also of great importance.

The drum and nipple can also have its problems, but my thoughts are that are for another posting, Right now, my two forefingers are greatly complaining.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA OR NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[roundball]

The whole concept of a patent breech design is to deliver faster, totally reliable ignition...all mine have them...can't imagine I'd ever buy a muzzleloader without one.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

John, I've seen far more misfires and hangfires with T/C and it's Italian clones than any other type of rifle. Of course, I don't know how they clean their rifles. I have had problems with Lyman trade rifles which I resolved by re-drilling the clean-out screw to 10x32 from its' original 8x32 or metric equivalent. DO NO DO THIS WITH A T/C, because they complicate matters by cutting away the bottom of the nipple bolster to fit over the lock plate, leaving very little metal below the flash channel. With a more intelligently designed rifle the lock plate is cut away to sit below a full strength nipple bolster and thus can stand having the flash channel enlarged. An 8x32 tap drill measures .136" while the larger 10x32 drill goes .159". That may not seem like a big difference but it increases the crossectional area by 37%, large enough that 2f and RS pyro can flow in under the nipple even when the hole is lined with a coat of fouling.
I've encountered many novice shooters who do not even know they are having hangfires. The slight hangfire, just enough to hear the cap separate from the muzzleblast fools many who think "that is just the way these old guns work". :grin:

 

[Leatherbark]

All of my T.C.Locked guns have instantaneous ignition with Black Powder........With Pyrodex they definatly have a slight hangfire on the best of[url] days........In[/url] the old days My buddies would have misfires in their T.C sidelocks......Using Pyrodex........I never had a misfire with black powder.......Unless I got carried away cleaning and left too much fluid on the firing chamber................Bob

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Yeh, all my T/C sidelocks go right off without the hang fire reported. My cheap Traditions .32 does as well. I use real BP for the most part or Triple Se7en only in guns that use caps. BP only in the flintlocks.