double charge

[Len Graves]

Question: If someone mistakenly charged with powder and ball then repeated the process would the second charge go off also? I know this could stir up a can of worms, but for the sake of spittin on the stove what do you all think? I have seen slow motion pictures of the muzzle at firing and see gas exiting before the ball ( Might have been Pletch's movies, really interesting) Is this "gas" hot enough to ignite the second charge? Just was a wonderin.

PS I have never done this, but have been known to lie about it every time.

 

[M. De Land]

I'd pull the top charge and find out the answer to your question in an experimental barrel tide to a log or old tire. I don't know the answer personally. It might light after clearing the muzzle from the muzzle blast of the following charge. MD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Question: If someone mistakenly charged with powder and ball then repeated the process would the second charge go off also? I know this could stir up a can of worms, but for the sake of spittin on the stove what do you all think? I have seen slow motion pictures of the muzzle at firing and see gas exiting before the ball ( Might have been Pletch's movies, really interesting) Is this "gas" hot enough to ignite the second charge? Just was a wonderin.

PS I have never done this, but have been known to lie about it every time.

There have been experimental rifles over the years that had stacked charges. None were successful. I once saw a CW period experimental bolt action muzzle loader. Really. They charges and ball were in a tube behind the normal breech location. The bolt action brought the next one into play.
So, I'm surmising (fancy word for guessing) that the stacked charges seldom went off when the main one was shot. Meaning, what you describe might or might not go off when the first is ignited. :shocked2:
My conclusion: Pull it. Don't take a chance.

 

[1sgt]

I did that. I shot, reloaded, stepped away to help someone. When I returned in a hurry I loaded again. I knew what I had done as soon as I rammed the ball down. Double loaded. I was using 45 gr pyrodex in a .45 cal TC Hawken. I got the range officer. I wanted to pull the top ball. He put a cap on the nipple, pointed it downrange, and fired. :cursing: The stainless steel niple blew out. :shake: It cleared both balls and I'm sure both charges fired. It would have been worse with a heavy charge.I shot my backup rifle the rest of the match. When I cleaned and inspected the barrel it was not damaged. I ran a tap in to clean the threads. I put in a new nipple. I felt dumb for double loading, double dumb for shooting it knowing the problem, and lucky someone didn't get hurt. I have changed my loading procedure to avoid doing that again.

 

[vthunter52]

My main concern is how you select your range officers :youcrazy:

 

[Tumblernotch]

My main concern is how you select your range officers :youcrazy:

Ditto. He would not have fired my rifle.

 

[jdkerstetter]

......and I'm sure both charges fired.......

What makes you so sure? With a properly patched round ball between the two loads it is very unlikely the second charge went off.

As Rifleman 1776 pointed out above, duplex and multiple stack charge guns, while rare, were produced from the flint through the percussion era. They worked on just this principle.

Now, kinda ff Part of their failure militarily was the difficulty of manufacture, time and care required in loading and the fear that a soldier under fire would inadvertently set off one of the rear charges before firing the first.

Civilian duplex guns were built. I have seen at least one with a mule's ear lock with two strikers. I believe they were unpopular as firing one shot at game required firing or pulling the other/s for cleaning.

So, there were both civilian and prototype military guns and I don't recall reading of any incendents of them blowing up. Could've happened though. :idunno:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I agree with this one. The RO where I shoot knows nothing about MLs, so I will follow his instructions where safety is concerned (cease fires and such), but will not allow him to handle my weapons. He has been told as much, as has been the range owner, and since the owner agreed, the RO follows the orders he was given. Doesn't like it, but obeys. I told the owner that since the RO doesn't know anything about MLs, my concern is that he will damage my weapons, and with the prices of some MLs, I would not want to have to put the RO and his employer (as a normal, non-personal friend but rather the usual customer) in a position of having to be responsible for damage to my guns. The owner is a personal friend, so I get a little leeway to speak my mind and be blunt without being considered to be hostile, so the owner was given a quick education on ML use and safety, and then questined the RO regarding MLs, and now agrees with me. So that went well, but the RO isn't very fond of me. If it had been my weapon your RO had done that with, HE would be the one I would hold responsible for any cost to my weapon, and since he decided to "proof" it with a known overcharge, I think he would be replacing at least my barrel, if not the entire gun, since it may or may not have been weakened to the point of being a hazard and it was his action that caused it to be in this unknown, and possibly unsafe, condition.

 

[M. De Land]

Yeah, good point! I've been know to defer to a person in authority over me before also only to discover belatedly that he knew less about the situation than I did. I hate it when I get BS conned into complying with utter nonsense.
If it blew the nipple out I sure would be suspicions of those threads and snail. MD

 

[Rat Trapper]

Guess I'm lucky to have my own range and not have to listen to anyone. Heck I could even blow down the barrel and no one would say anything.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My main concern is how you select your range officers :youcrazy:

Agree. That RO is an idiot and should be reported.

 

[jamesthomas]

When I got my rifle back from the R.O. I would have butt stroked the blankety blank, and followed it up with so more blank words.

 

[Len Graves]

First of all this was a hypothetical question. I was not planning on doing this. I don't know how a range officer got in there, however you are correct some modern RO's don't know about muzzleloading quirks. I know about super-posed loads, but with those the last charge loaded was ignited first. I under stand sometimes all the charges went off through gas leakage. My question was does anyone think it could happen in reverse? I have see several double loads go off and have not seen a mishap from this situation. I do not recommend doing this. I was just curious.

 

[Rifleman1776]

1stsgt said it happened to him. Naughty RO. :nono:
Hypothetical or not. We play with stuff that goes 'boom'. Front or back, it can happen. Not always but is possible.

 

[Matt85]

I did that. I shot, reloaded, stepped away to help someone. When I returned in a hurry I loaded again. I knew what I had done as soon as I rammed the ball down. Double loaded. I was using 45 gr pyrodex in a .45 cal TC Hawken. I got the range officer. I wanted to pull the top ball. He put a cap on the nipple, pointed it downrange, and fired. :cursing: The stainless steel niple blew out. :shake: It cleared both balls and I'm sure both charges fired. It would have been worse with a heavy charge.I shot my backup rifle the rest of the match. When I cleaned and inspected the barrel it was not damaged. I ran a tap in to clean the threads. I put in a new nipple. I felt dumb for double loading, double dumb for shooting it knowing the problem, and lucky someone didn't get hurt. I have changed my loading procedure to avoid doing that again.

i would be ****** if someone even touched my gun without my permision. if someone just walked up and shot my gun, expecially with a load like that in it i would probably end up in jail that night.

RO's in my area are not allowed to touch peoples guns without permision. i know a few ranges dont allow RO's to fire a gun while on the clock. one RO was drooling over my long rifle so i offered to let him shoot it. the poor guy looked like he was about to cry as he informed me he was not allowed to shoot customers guns on the clock.

-matt

 

[hanshi]

I can't really answer your question, BUT. I think I did just that once before. I can't remember any specifics at all just the deja vous gnawing at my feeble memory. I'm still here so it can't be too bad.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I would like to know how one would know if one or both charges go off. The recoil would be the same if not higher if only the first charge ignited and the shooter would likely not be able to tell the difference.

Would there be two reports? And if there were could they be preceived seperately by the shooter or others? How would the ignition of the second charge in the barrel affect the ball and expanding gasses of the first? Pressure of the expanding gasses pushing on the first load as the first load is exerting pressure against the breech. There's a lot going on here. :hmm:

Perhaps we need a volunteer to test this...not me. They could do it over a white sheet and with some hi-tech audio recording equipment. Perhaps we could get Pletch to video it?

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[RedFeather]

This kind of reminds me of a "repeating" gun that I read about long ago where the loads were sort of connected by drilling a small hole through each ball. IIRC, the gun had an underhammer about half-way down the barrel to ignite the first charge which, in turn, would ignite the second and so forth. I don't think it worked quite as well as the inventor hoped. At any rate, it would be something to see.

PS - Don't try this at home! After I posted this, I thought, hmmmmmmm.....couldn't you just.....naw!!!!

 

[Zonie]

...

Perhaps we need a volunteer to test this...not me. They could do it over a white sheet and with some hi-tech audio recording equipment. Perhaps we could get Pletch to video it?

Enjoy, J.D.

Boy!
What an amazing idea!

As everyone knows, the "white sheet" is only true way that can be used to collect unburned powder so, if the top charge didn't fire the sheet should be literally covered with unburned powder.

If the top charge also fired the white sheet would be laying there, pristine, in all of its glistening glory.

Now, why can't I think of things like this?

:rotf:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Hey Zonie, are you volunteering to do this test for us? :thumbsup: I'll send you the sheets!!!

A couple of guys over in the gun building forum have retarded monkeys they use to do their inletting We could use to pull the trigger.....if you're scared. :wink:

Enjoy, J.D.