Dissappointment with T/C

[KarlSchrader]

I have to report a deep disappointment with T/C, regarding quality assurance.
About two years ago, I purchased a replacement flintlock from the L & R Lock Company for my T/C Hawken. Now, the installation of this lock required some woodremoval in the lockarea of the stock to accomodate the leaf main spring of the L&R lock, fine, I did that and the lock fitted perfectly and is also functioning first class. Since I now had the original T/C lock and also several extra barrels, I ordered a replacement stock from T/C. Now comes the reason why I am so upset with T/C. When I assembled the original T/C lock and one of my sparebarrels onto the new stock, I found that the touchhole is not centered in the pan anymore. It is now just on the edge of the pan to the rear and looks really out of place there. Several e-mails to Tim Pancurak at T/C did not produce anything in terms of a correction by T/C and just recently Tim Pancurak stated in an e-mail, that there is no intention to remedy this obvious error in the making of the stock. There must have been a major goof by T/C when they ordered the new stocks from whoever is making them for T/C, the position of the lockplate for the flintlock version of the Hawken has to be moved to the rear to bring the touchhole back into the centre of the pan. And there might be more involved, like the trigger assembly or what have you.
Anyway, I checked several new Hawkens at the store where I normally get my supplies, in this case it is Le Baron's and sure enough several of their Hawkens all have the touch hole off centre.
So, if anybody orders a replacement lock from L&R for the T/C Hawken, he will find that the pan will not line up with the touchhole at all since the pan of the L&R lock is quite narrow. The pan on the T/C flintlock in contrast is quite wide and thus is still accommodating the touchhole even if it is at the extreme rear-edge of the pan.
I am posting this because it is a real shame that T/C is not correcting this obvious error in shaping the new stocks and I assume that there might be a substantial number of stocks involved. It is also a shame because T/C did quite some pioneering in bringing the muzzeloading to the average shooter in the past. But now they are concentrating probably on their inline muzzleoaders (which should be prohibited in any muzzleloading hunting season).

 

[roundball]

I wonder if Tim got confused with all the references to L&R locks, was in a hurry, etc...not the typical response that one normally gets from TC.

By contrast, he/TC has been exemplary supporting me for almost 15 years...replaced parts, locks, a barrel, and a complete stock for me to the point that I'm embarrassed to list them all...however, the stock was a presentation grade Cougar stock that developed a .5" hairline crack with the grain from a wedge pin escutcheon screw hole just a half inch up to the edge of the barrel bed...that's as big as it could possibly get...I had simply Emailed him to ask if I should coat the inside of it with epoxy and he told me to send it in...he replaced it with a brand new presentation grade Cougar stock with all new furniture installed...and a number of new, redesigned flint lock assemblies...service & support has been no questions asked and second to none for me, so that's why I'm wondering if he really understood the issue clearly...dunno.

If it was me, I would assemble the complete rifle and UPS the whole thing to TC and ask them to fix the alignment problem...that way, they're standing there with a customer's rifle on the premises with an obvious alignment problem and they have every component at their finger tips to interchange whatever's necessary to fix it and ship it right back out...might even just send you a replacement rifle...if you truly think you're being wronged, you should send it to them...lifetime warranty on their products!

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

Jager,

I wonder if L&R is aware of that?

 

[KarlSchrader]

Thanks for the advice, trouble is that sending a gun from Canada is not simple any more with all that crazy guncontrol thing up here.
But you are right, Tim was o.k. in the past when I had some troulbe with my Seneca.
Jager

 

[tg]

"TC has been exemplary supporting me for almost 15 years..."

Well Bill....I would think they would take care of someone who accounts for 40% of their gross sales..(VBG)

 

[roundball]

TG, your heart is going to skip a beat when I tell you this...but at the TOW site the other day, I actually paused and studied that left handed Issac haines they have photos of...nice looking rifle...I could probably hunt with that!

 

[AgesofDays]

you had to go and say that didnt you I almost had my mind made up on witch one to buy now i have too think some more.i just went and looked at it and wow ....that`s a nice rifle and my wife was standing behind me and she said oooo i like that gun THANKS.....

 

[KarlSchrader]

Since L&R do not have e-mail, I will send them a snailmail letter outlining exactly what it is that makes it impossible to install one of their locks on a flintlock
T/C Hawken. Somebody at T/C really was asleep at the switch when they ordered the new stocks from their supplier. What a bloody nuisance all that is creating.

 

[roundball]

FYI...I just got off the phone with TC Arms regarding the TC Hawken stock situation and I'll quote their reply:

1) "Yes, unfortunately a number of TC Hawken stocks escaped production with an out of tolerance inletting error;"

2) "If someone ends up with one of these stocks and has any problems with it at all, they should simply return the rifle to TC Arms and we'll make it right under the lifetime warranty, no charge of course."

 

[bob1961]

there ya go....customer service at it's finest........................bob

 

Yeah - trouble is entirely with the present socialist government. In order for that rifle to be shipped back- the shipper will have to have A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENCE AND a FIREARMS EXPORT LICENCE licence. Unlike in the States, BP firearms here have the same designations as centrefire firearms, EXCEPT for Flinters. Trouble is, few people in regulatory positions know this about flinters.
: He'll have to check with customs on this - in person, rather than on the phone,to find out for certain.

 

[riarcher]

Just wondering about Canadian law-
Could everything be "ok" with Officials if it was made "inoperatal"?
I'm thinking like remove the lock and send un-assembled or in a seperate package.
Maybe not the lock but perhaps the barrel, or just simply removing the trigger?
(Just an idea)

 

That is possible, however there is a rider that states that with less than 2 hours 'work', it could be made to fire, THEN is also still a firearm and all laws apply.
: It is interesting that military heritage gets away with no vent clasifying them as non-firearms. Perhaps because flinters in Canada don't have to be registered - perhaps.
: I know of a collector who bought de-wats (deactivated military firearms) from the Canadian Governemnt in the 60's and was charged with possession of prohibited weapons (machine guns) in the 70's due to a trigger group being operational on one of them, even though there were no other parts that could be used due to torch cutting. That was due to Pierre Trudeau's 1978 declaration of C83.
: This present government has hidden laws and riders attached to most gun laws, passed by orders-in-council, which haven't been declared yet, but are in effect WHEN they want them to be.
: It is very difficult to say what may or might be used or what laws or amendments are being 'used' at any given time.
: It is quite likely a muzzleloader might sneak by in parts - It's just plain hard to say.

 

[KarlSchrader]

Hello roundball,
I sent the following e-mail to T/C, let's see what Tim Pancurak will do about it. Thanks for your efforts.
Jager
+++++++++++
Dear Mr. Pancurak:
I just got off the Muzzleloading Forum website and found the following information:
""FYI...I just got off the phone with TC Arms regarding the TC Hawken stock situation and I'll quote their reply:

1) "Yes, unfortunately a number of TC Hawken stocks escaped production with an out of tolerance inletting error;"

2) "If someone ends up with one of these stocks and has any problems with it at all, they should simply return the rifle to TC Arms and we'll make it right under the lifetime warranty, no charge of course." """
+++++++++++++++
As you probably recall, we had already quite extensive e-mail correspondence about this and just recently you answered one of my e-mails saying that nothing is contemplated to remedy that situation.
Since I am sitting here in Canada and since our crazy liberal government makes it almost impossible to simply send a complete rifle across the border to be exchanged for warranty purposes, I would propose to you that if you are really serious to correct this messy mistake of the wrong inletting, we could do the following: If you are trusting me enough (I am your customer for almost 25 years) you could send me a Hawken flintlock stock with the corrected lockplate inletting and I would return the faulty stock to you, using the same packing box after I received your new stock. Part of the problem is that I do not have a box to send the old stock in so it would be quite convenient to re-use your box. If you are marking your shipment as being a warranty replacement, it probably would also not cost extra customs duties. ( Oh, these stupid borders).
If you are willing to do this, here is my mailing address:
***********************
***********************
I would be really grateful if you would trust me in this, please let me know if we could proceed in this manner.
With best regards,
Karl Schrader

 

[roundball]

Trust aside, I'm not sure TC's corporate shipping / billing systems would even process such a transaction of shipping a free stock;

The simplist approach would be that they send you a shipping container with an official RMA# (Return Materials Authorization) address labeled to TC Arms;

Or...they could ask you to buy the replacement stock (credit card, etc?) and then issue you a refund/credit when they received the returned stock in the shipping box;

 

[KarlSchrader]

Hi, Roundball,
My e-mail to T/C came back as undeliverable. Are they still in business?? Just kidding. Here is what is on their website





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Thompson/Center Arms
P.O. Box 5002, Rochester, NH, USA 03866-5002

Phone(603)332-2333
Fax(603)332-5133


Disclaimer

 

[KarlSchrader]

Yes, you are right. That's what I will do and ask them for a new stock, paid for and so on and ask for a refund when they get my old stock back.