Deer hunting w/12 ga smoothbore vs. 12 ga shotgun

[infottw]

Are they even close? I hunt deer with a 12 ga shotgun, 2 3/4 off the shelf loads. I am iching for a new muzzleloader and my LGS (local gun shop) has a 12 ga that I like. Will it work for deer with slugs or am I better off with a 50 cal?

 

[Rebel]

Hey ATCNWT, you bet it will work. Anything you can do with your shellshucker you can do with a BP shotgun. Just be sure that if you get a .12 ga. ML'er that has a choke in the barrels that you don't try shooting steel shot out of it. My double barrel .12 ga. has no choke, both barrels are cylinder bore. I have better luck with it on ducks and geese, doves and quail, and rabbits, than i do with my Mossberg pump, plus it is a lot more fun. As long as you aren't planning on making real long shots with it, it will do anything a .50 cal rifle will and more, because of the size of the balls. Big Balls do a better job. :: Just try and kkep your shots under 75 yds. and you should be fine.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have a 12 ga. New Englander and it throws a .690 roundball effectively to 60 yards. It would kill about anything that lives in North America at that range with a 90 gr charge. A .50 nearly has double the range - but only because of the effectiveness of the sights. The 12 ga. has a single gold bead; not the best for extended range.

I would actually put my 12 ga. 11-87 w/Hastings rifled barrel & Williams sights up against a .50 with PRB at 120 yards. It might lose to the rifle slightly in accuracy, but the retained energy of the slug is higher and the diameter of the hole remains bigger. But remember, the M/L 12 ga. will be limited to a round ball.

I would recommend the .50 as a deer weapon, but the 12 is more versitile; shooting either ball or shot. My New Englander has the happy feature of interchangable .50 & 12 ga. barrels.

 

You can easily load RB's in smokeless shotshells to exceed 1,500fps. You can find hese laods in several shotshell handboks. In the Muzzleloading 12 bore, you won't like the recoil as it takes roughly 190gr. 1F to get that much vel. and this load might be unsafe for many 12 bore ML smoothies.
; Actually, with 1F powder, the 190gr. load was the standard for 12 bore in Africa in both the Paradox and ball/shot guns. They had slightly heavier barrels than common shotguns, however I shot that load in my double-gun without problem - it just kicks like H!!!but shot well. The "light" 12 bore load was 150gr.1F. The 150gr.1F load gives around 1,350fps.
; NOTE - they used SINGLE "F", NOT 2F.

 

[RussB]

You can easily load RB's in smokeless shotshells to exceed 1,500fps. You can find hese laods in several shotshell handboks. In the Muzzleloading 12 bore, you won't like the recoil as it takes roughly 190gr. 1F to get that much vel. and this load might be unsafe for many 12 bore ML smoothies.
; Actually, with 1F powder, the 190gr. load was the standard for 12 bore in Africa in both the Paradox and ball/shot guns. They had slightly heavier barrels than common shotguns, however I shot that load in my double-gun without problem - it just kicks like H!!!but shot well. The "light" 12 bore load was 150gr.1F. The 150gr.1F load gives around 1,350fps.
; NOTE - they used SINGLE "F", NOT 2F.

...........................................................
Daryl...You may find it interesting that I recently experimented with my 20ga "break open" single bbl using the following method.
Using a .54cal Lee REAL,(320gr...I think), and 62gr Goex Cartridge. I loaded the Win.AA casing with the Black Powder, I cut a "Cheddite White" plastic wad to the same length as the Lee REAL, (and then cut 1/2 it's base off). Loaded the Lee REAL in the wad, Seated the REAL and Wad using ~30# seating pressure, then crimped with a "star" crimp........yooolia! I had myself a smoothbore "cartridge"...of sorts.
Or perhaps more of a smoothbore "sabot". Anyway,
I "made paper" 3x out of 5, at 50, and then I chickened out. No clue as to what the pressures were, no clue as to what the velocity was, but the recoil was terrible! The recoil made my quit. Figgured I better quit while I was ahead, and before something went South on me.
I DO NOT recommend anyone try this, unless of course they know "exactly" what they're doing and what to expect.
Everything may have been perfectly okay, but then again, I may have been playing with fire. I'm not sure. It was pretty much a fool thing for me to do w/o any knowledge of what to expect. But it was darn interesting!
Daryl, do you, or anyone, have any knowledge of the procedure I described? If you do, I would love to hear a few comments on the subject.
I certainly don't want to hijack this thread, but if anyone knows anything, would you come forth?...in a new thread, and let's talk. I think this has merit, but I would like some advise before jumping in over my head.
Respectfully, Russ

 

I really like to see people experimenting with BP in modern shotguns and rifles. Although is really doesn't fit in this forum, perhaps I can shed some more light and my experiences in this to help out with desirable results. I am quite surprised at your accuracy, but tclose range accuracy isn't all that's necessary for game killing performance - later.
: In a standard or 3" 20bore shotshell, you cannot exceed the shotguns pressure limits with Round Balls & possible with slugs within reason. It may be possible with slugs in the 550gr. range, but then the resulting keyholing slugs have absolutely no advantage over round balls in smoothbores. With a rifled bore, this is of course different, where an elongated slug would work just fine, provided the twist is rapid enough for PROPER stabilization.
; Using up to 4 or even 5 drams of powder still presents very low pressures in a 20 bore and even lower pressure in a 16 or 12.
; Ond thing you could try, it to use a card over powder wad, then the base from a recovered or new plastic shot cup with everything but the base cup cut off. Place the cup with the cup up. Keeping the folding leaves has done nothing to help out with the accuracy, but sometimes is necessary for proper case length for crimping. Generally the stem of the plastic wad merely takes up needed powder space. The cup facing up will hold the ball in the centre of the bore and not let it rattle down the bore. An over shot wad is then placed on top of the ball. We got very good results using bases as ball centerers. Friends of mine patch the balls, but make certain they will pass through the choke.
; The possilbe/probable problem with unstable slugs, as in your .54 slug, is that when hitting game, penetration is sacrificed as well as straight-line penetration becomes non existant after impact. It takes a fairly rapid twist to keep a slug stabilized AFTER impact. A round ball doesn't seem to suffer the same instability after penetration as do a elongated bullets in smoothbores.
; Way to go- and experiment with various powder charges. A shotshell manual will give loads for smokeless powder for slugs and moulds available.
; One thing you will find, is that BP kicks a LOT more than an equivalent velocity load with smokeless powder & the same projectile. It is easy to get 1,400fps from 20 or 1,500fps from 12 bore shotshells with smokeless, as in the 12 bore for instance, it takes the full 12 bore African load of 190gr.1F.