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Davenport Formula?

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Billnpatti

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I read about the Davenport Formula which states that the best load for a given rifle is equil to 11.5 grains of powder per cubic inch of barrel volume. Is this a good reliable formula?

Using this formula to calculate the best load for my .50 cal rifle with a 32 inch barrel is 72 grains. This seems a bit light. Normally, I shoot anywhere from 80 to 100 grains depending on my target and its distance.

Any comments or thoughts on this?
 
All I can say is that the "best load" (accuracy wise) may not always be the most powerful load in any given rifle. :wink:
 
Put a sheet on the ground under the muzzle of your rifle, in front of a shooting bench, and shoot those higher powder charges. If you have UNBURNED powder on the sheet after firing, you are simply pushing powder out the barrel.

Have someone else shoot the gun with a load at 70 grains, and then a load at 100 grains. If you see a much bigger flame or flash outside the muzzle, that is where all that extra powder is burning!( Do this in poor light or at night so you see the flame or flash better.) And, look for the " sparklers" in front of the barrel. If they increase as you increase that powder charge, you are simply burning powder outside the muzzle, and that is not contributing to greater velocity of your ball or bullet.

The Davenport formula tells you when you have reached a point of Diminishing Returns. It does not mean you can't put more powder in the barrel, nor does it mean you may not get more velocity from your ball using more powder.( You are just not getting more bang for your buck!) Generally, you will begin to see that you get LESS velocity for each increment in powder charge the more powder you use over that formula amount.

Those short barreled rifles are handy in the woods, but you do give up some velocity in return. Nothing is free. BP burns progressively, particularly behind a PRB, of that caliber or smaller, because there is not enough MASS in the ball or friction caused by the ball and patch against the bore, to raise the pressure, or chamber temperature behind the PRB to get a quicker burning of the powder.

That is why you get residue of unburned carbon deposits. If you increase the mass, by using OP wads in the barrel, for instance, you will get a better burn, and a more complete burning of the carbon( charcoal), leaving you less gritty residue to clean between shots. An OP wad, or filler, over the powder, is going to provide a much better gas seal in the barrel, than any cloth patch can shooting a soft lead ball.

Gas seals not only prevent the gases from cutting or burning your patch and ball, but they help raise the pressure and temperature in the powder that is burning. We are talking milliseconds, here, but the increases in heat and pressure helps to consume the powder more efficiently.

The Davenport formula applies whether you are shooting a PRB, using an OP wad, or fillers, or shooting conicals, with and without base wads. Its about how the powder burns, and not about what you are pushing with the gases the powder produces. The granules burn from the outside in, and the only way to get more velocity from this compound is to reduce the size of the granule you use.

If you want more velocity, do as many do, and switch from 2Fg to 3Fg powder, but work up your loads carefully, and use a chronograph. Look for spikes in velocities, or drops. Both indicate that something is going on with that load that radically affects where that ball is going to hit, and you probably don't want to use that load.

Swiss powder burns hotter, and faster, because there seems to be a bit more Potassium Nitrate used in the powder, and the granular sizing is based on metrics, and is smaller than what American-made powders are. I suspect that the difference in the formula arises from the use of metric scales of measurement, rather than any real desire to produce a " hotter " Black Powder.

In tests my Brother made using his .40 caliber target rifle, when he used OP wad with both Swiss and Goex powders, the difference in velocity for two similar loads of powder where only about 100 fps apart. Without the OP wad, the difference was closer to 300 fps.

The company claims the powder burns cleaner because they are using only charcoal made from pure Alder( or poplar) lumber, harvested from Eastern Europe. That may be the case. If you mix any pine, for instance, in with your hardwoods before making charcoal, you add pine tars to the mix, and that does not burn efficiently at the temperatures generated in Mler barrels, typically.( Fruit woods would contribute more sap, typically, and that also doesn't burn well).

You don't need a lot of velocity for any PRB to kill deer, at ranges where deer are normally shot when open sights are used. The soft lead ball expands on impact, creating a much larger Primary wound channel, and that is how it kills so efficiently. :hmm: :surrender:

There are lots of members here who kill deer every year with 70 grains of powder and less in their .50s. :hmm: My .50 has a 39 inch barrel, but I shoot " only" 75 grains of 2Fg powder in it out to 100 yds as my hunting load.( So, I guess I basically disagree with your original complaint that 70 grains is NOT ENOUGH powder.)

That 180 grain RB weights a bit more than 4 tenths of an ounce, and its a very heavy projectile to hit game. On broadside shots, the ball completely penetrates most deer. :shocked2:

My first deer was killed at about 40 yards, and that ball broke a rib going in, went through bottom lobes of both lungs, and the aorta on top of the heart, before breaking a second rib on its way out. There are not a lot of modern cartridges that can do much better than that! :thumbsup:
 
Billnpatti said:
Is this a good reliable formula? Any comments or thoughts on this?
No, it is of no value in shooting muzzleloaders.
In addition, if you just look at the words you typed you'll see that the premise is completely flawed from the beginning by making a generic reference to "powder".
(unless there's more definition, please share the 'link' with us)

What powder?
What brand?
What granulation?
To achieve what goal?
How measured?
Fouling?
Accuracy?
Stopping power?
Distance?
Etc
Etc
Etc


"Formulas" and "Traditional Muzzleloading" are mutually exclusive.
 
Ive chrono-ed my flintlock With the the normal 55gr FFF in my 45 cal, with a 42 inch barrel.
I produce about 1600ish FPS.

I had double the charge to 110 grs. It did 2000ish FPS.

Hardly worth the extra powder.

I cant for the life of me figure out why folks have to use so much.

How does one figure the cubic inches on a barrel?

Id like to see what charge comes out for my barrel
 
roundball said:
"Formulas" and "Traditional Muzzleloading" are mutually exclusive.

I agree. The only way to find the best load is to spend time on the range with your rifle. Adjust the powder charge until you find the most accurate load that is also powerful enough if you plan on hunting with it.

A chronograph can certainly help if you want to bother yourself with the law of diminishing returns. I find all that too high-tech and bothersome.

HD
 
Nicely done. Very good answer. My one comment is that I don't believe black powder is progressive burning. Smokeless powders are and procduce a more gradual increase in pressure but produce a greater maximum pressure. That's the way I understand it, anyway.

Thanks again for your very informative answer.
 
Roundball, you are right about the lack of specification of powder being of importance. The book from which I got the formula specified no brand or granulation. Since I did not write the article, I cannot tell you what brand or granulation was used.

Good research would assume that you would hold all of the variables that you mentioned constant so they would not figure into your research as confusing factors. You only change one variable at a time so as not to properly determine its effect on the outcome. Dutch Shultz discusses this in his information on accuracy.

It is strange that you say that formulae and black powder shooting are mutually exclusive. If you will read any of the many black powder books, there are many formulae given in them. These formulae can be quite valuable in getting the maximum from your black powder gun with the minimum ventures up blind alleys.

Never the less, thank you for taking time to share your thoughts.
 
Truly said. I use a much reduced load for target shooting just for this reason. As I read each of the answers, I gain a better understanding of just what information the Davenport Formula provides. Thaks for your input.
 
I agree with your objection to the term, but I have yet to read or find a term that explains better the difference between what happens to smokeless powder in a closed ignition, and black powder in a closed ignition. The only reason black powder doesn't "explode" is that it burns from the outside of each granule inward. That is why they make different sized granules of BP to control the rate of burning, and consequently the amount of pressure created by the various sized granules.

When you witness a shower of burning and unburned powder coming out the muzzle of these guns, you realize that the powder burns a whole lot differently than does smokeless powder. My earliest experience with the different powders was watching a man shoot a Sharps .45-90 rifle at a public range when I was a kid. I had seen " Semi-smokeless " powder loads fired from Dad's Springfield .45-70. I got to see both smokeless and BP fired by this shooter out of that Sharps. He was using a Tang sight, and shooting far better groups than dad was getting out of his Springfield. But, as a kid, what I notices first was the the smoke, flame, and those burning powder flakes falling from the muzzle whenever he fired.
 
The way to figure the volume of your barrel is to use the old formula for the volume of a cylinder which is pi times the radius of the cylinder squared times the heighth of the cylinder. If you are talking about the barrel on the rifle that I cited, the caliber is .50 and the length (heighth) is 32 inches. Since the radius of a circle is one half the diameter and the diameter of a .50 caliber barrel is nominally .50 inches, the radius is .25 inches. So taking pi as 3.1416 we have 3.1416 X (.25 X .25) X 32. This is equil to 3.1416 X .0625 X 32 = 6.283 cubic inches. Now, take the 6.283 X 11.5 and we get 71.7 grains. If you read Paul Valandingham's reply, he gives an excellent explanation of exactly what this figure means.
 
Billnpatti said:
Roundball, you are right about the lack of specification of powder being of importance. The book from which I got the formula specified no brand or granulation. Since I did not write the article, I cannot tell you what brand or granulation was used.

Good research would assume that you would hold all of the variables that you mentioned constant so they would not figure into your research as confusing factors. You only change one variable at a time so as not to properly determine its effect on the outcome. Dutch Shultz discusses this in his information on accuracy.

It is strange that you say that formulae and black powder shooting are mutually exclusive. If you will read any of the many black powder books, there are many formulae given in them. These formulae can be quite valuable in getting the maximum from your black powder gun with the minimum ventures up blind alleys.
Its very strange you cannot produce any source documentation or links to substantiate the claims that tie all these formulas to traditional muzzleloading...you should be able to Google up your "davenport formula" and post all the URLs to these documented sources you mentioned.
Its also interesting that over all the decades no one else has brought forward such claims...I wonder what that means...and remember, this is a traditional muzzleloading site...not a modern inline site.
 
Roundball, why so argumentative. I did not say it was the be all and end all formula or that it was even correct. I only asked what anyone knew about it. Go back and read the original question. Also, I did not say a could not produce the documentation, I simply chose not clutter up my question with all of it. If you are interested, it is out there for you to read for yourself. If you want to read one of the sources to which I alluded, may I suggest the Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual. I do not NEED to refer to the more technical aspects of muzzleloading, I simply choose to do so. I am a scientist by education and these technical things appeal to me. I like to quantify things to better understand them. However, I also enjoy the old "take a shot and see what happens" approach from time to time. Some people can do it both ways and some can't. I can.
 
Billnpatti said:
Roundball, why so argumentative. I did not say it was the be all and end all formula or that it was even correct. I only asked what anyone knew about it. Go back and read the original question. Also, I did not say a could not produce the documentation, I simply chose not clutter up my question with all of it. If you are interested, it is out there for you to read for yourself. If you want to read one of the sources to which I alluded, may I suggest the Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual. I do not NEED to refer to the more technical aspects of muzzleloading, I simply choose to do so. I am a scientist by education and these technical things appeal to me. I like to quantify things to better understand them. However, I also enjoy the old "take a shot and see what happens" approach from time to time. Some people can do it both ways and some can't. I can.

:rotf: ...because of all the smoke in the air!

So the answer is still the same:

"...Its very strange you cannot produce any source documentation or links to substantiate the claims that tie all these formulas to traditional muzzleloading...you should be able to Google up your "davenport formula" and post all the URLs to these documented sources you mentioned.
Its also interesting that over all the decades no one else has brought forward such claims...I wonder what that means...and remember, this is a traditional muzzleloading site...not a modern inline site..."
 
roundball said:
Its very strange you cannot produce any source documentation or links to substantiate the claims that tie all these formulas to traditional muzzleloading...you should be able to Google up your "davenport formula" and post all the URLs to these documented sources you mentioned.
Its also interesting that over all the decades no one else has brought forward such claims...I wonder what that means...and remember, this is a traditional muzzleloading site...not a modern inline site..."

If I recall correctly the formula was actually for the enormous cannons on naval battleships. It's theory probably doesn't hold much water in our "small" bored rifles.

HD
 
No. Back in the 1940s and 50s, after WWII, Charles Davenport would appear at Friendship and walk the firing line with his book, giving the efficient load for each shooter's gun, caliber, and barrel length. Merrill Deer, a past President of the NMLRA passed this formula on after Davenport's death. Yes, Davenport was the Chief of Naval Ordinance in both WWI and WWII. Phil Quaglino, a national rifle and pistol record holder, who now lives in Florida and remains a State Rep. for the NMLRA, passed that formula on to my brother, Peter, who gave it to me, at his request with the intent that I share it on this forum. I labeled the formula the " Davenport Formula, because people like Roundball began labelling it my formula, in error.

For all the skeptics, the reason PHil wanted this formula to be known by the members and readers of this forum is because he has used the formula ALL HIS career as a Competitive shooter, in both pistols and rifles. He credits the formula for giving him the most accurate loads, quickly with the thousands of guns he has made, and fired over his life-time. Phil is in his 70s, not in particularly good health, but is still a fine shooter. He just doesn't have the stamina he once had. He still shoots when he feels up to it. He usually wins the club shoots outside Tallahassee, Florida, where he lives.

If Charles Davenport never existed, I would still want to share this information even if it came from Phil Quaglino, personally. He is a national Champion, several times over. You don't get there without solving a lot of problems, and being one heck of a shooter.

Now, whether anyone here is smart enough to Listen to sound advice, and use it is another matter. I am happy to see some interest in the formula from some of the members. Some people are never going to be persuaded, and citing a ton of books as "authority" for an idea is still not going to persuade them that the idea is a good one. I don't bother trying to open closed minds.

The formula relates to HOW black Powder Burns- and not to cannons, or rockets, or anything else.

For instance, in his .36 caliber pistols, Phil uses only 12 grains of powder. Even his .36 caliber revolvers, he has made sleeves that fit inside each chamber to reduce the powder capacity to 12 grains, and provide a shoulder to stop the downward movement of each lead ball as its rammed home. He doesn't have to worry about inconsistencies in the length of volume of his chambers when he is shooting a target match. Oh, the amount of powder is controlled by the length of the barrel, and the length of the cylinder together. He has an 8 inch barrel, and the cylinder is approx. 2 inches long, so he loads 11.78 grains, or "12 grains" of Goex 3Fg powder in the chambers of his revolvers. Some of his pistol records still stand.

Paul Vallandigham
 
So it this holds true.

My number is 75.5 grs.

So if 55grs did 1600 fps, and 110 did 2000 fps.

Then 75.5 should get the optimum burn at 2000 fps

saving me 34.5 grs of powder.

Soon as the rain slows, Im out to my shootin spot to test this out.

I love my Chrony
 
You asked
Any comments or thoughts on this?

To anwser this question. I started using this formula about three years ago. That being said I feel that it works just fine for the range of shooting I do. And also I found that the formula was pretty close to the loads I had been shooting before I knew of this formula. I use it in all my rifles now. I also use a OPW in all my rifles. :2
 
I shoot whatever gives the tightest groups possible.FPS,energy,and all other stuff means nothing if you can't hit what you are aiming at.LOTS of range work with all the varibles.It may give a reference point but what about twist,rifle depth,patch thickness,ball size,lube,and FFg or FFFg?
 
Paul,
Thank you for the clarification. Good thing I don't rely on my memory for important things or I'd be in real trouble.

:v

HD
 

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