CVA Pennsylvania cap and ball .50

[mkpatrick]

Did they discontinue them?

I did not know a rifle like mine could fire conical rounds.

Are there any comparable products like the Lee REAL bullet mold?

M

 

[Sparkitoff]

Instead of the REAL conical, you could try a box of Hornady PA Conicals. I was given a CVA "Hawken" rifle with 1:60 ROT .50 caliber. It was similar to yours in that it was put away without cleaning for a year or more after it was fired. I cleaned and cleaned until it seemed pretty good based on patches. With a patched round ball load, I would find the patch and it was slightly torn and sometimes had a little orange on it that I figured was rust that just wasnt coming out with cleaning patches. Anyway, the round ball accuracy was not very good. I tried the PA Conicals (they are short, stubby conicals that have a round head like a ball, but a sort of skirt behing it). They were extremely accurate and I used it to take a few deer. After sighting in and shooting and hunting I had gone through 100 PA conicals. What was interesting was that I decided to try patched ball again and they shot great! Patches were in good shape and accuracy was there. I can only guess that by shooting the PA Conicals I somehow wore the remaining rust out of the barrel. I think you're in good shape with that barrel if you keep it up.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Did they discontinue them?

I did not know a rifle like mine could fire conical rounds.

Are there any comparable products like the Lee REAL bullet mold?

M

A conical bullet of short length will work in your rifle with the round ball twist.

The Lee Molds are have not been discontinued, but demand for muzzle loading products has been so high lately that supplies have vanished. I am sure that Lee Precision wants inventory back on the shelves soon too.

 

[TrapperPete]

Did they discontinue them?

I did not know a rifle like mine could fire conical rounds.

Are there any comparable products like the Lee REAL bullet mold?

M

no they did not discontinue the R.E.A.L they are making them possibly in even greater quantity than past years , but it is 2021 and demand is insane for anything gun including molds.

the president of Lee reloading did a video recently they have hired on more staff and are working overtime and have added a shift they just can't keep up with the demand for their products

a can of Balistol or napa cutting and grinding oil part number 765-1526
you can make yourself up some moose milk 1 part soluble oil 10 parts water as a patch lube
and use patches with strait soluble oil after cleaning.

you can use the strait oil on the lock also , wipe down the stock with the moose milk

pre clean at the range with the moose milk and some patches before heading home to clean

ox-yoke or bore butter would also be good for after cleaning lube

if you keep to a natural lube then you don't have to clean it out before shooting black powder

hot water and soap cleaning from here on out is all you should need if you don't let the bore go again.

if patches are not snagging when tight on a jag they should be OK on a ball. see how it goes.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When you are done cleaning, store the rifle muzzle down to let any remaining oils in the breech drain out. The oils will coat the breech and barrel and not leave a puddle of oil in the breech to contaminate the powder the next time you go to the range.

 

[mkpatrick]

Instead of the REAL conical, you could try a box of Hornady PA Conicals. I was given a CVA "Hawken" rifle with 1:60 ROT .50 caliber. It was similar to yours in that it was put away without cleaning for a year or more after it was fired. I cleaned and cleaned until it seemed pretty good based on patches. With a patched round ball load, I would find the patch and it was slightly torn and sometimes had a little orange on it that I figured was rust that just wasnt coming out with cleaning patches. Anyway, the round ball accuracy was not very good. I tried the PA Conicals (they are short, stubby conicals that have a round head like a ball, but a sort of skirt behing it). They were extremely accurate and I used it to take a few deer. After sighting in and shooting and hunting I had gone through 100 PA conicals. What was interesting was that I decided to try patched ball again and they shot great! Patches were in good shape and accuracy was there. I can only guess that by shooting the PA Conicals I somehow wore the remaining rust out of the barrel. I think you're in good shape with that barrel if you keep it up.

So these Hornady's, when I load them, are they blunt nosed enough to use my patch/ball starter into the muzzle without ruining the conical?

One issue I had before all this rust issue came up was at the range, back when shooting with my uncle, I was only firing round ball. After about 3 rounds, it got harder and harder to push a new ball and patch down the barrel. On about the 5th round, it took considerable effort.
So after the 5th round, I'd run some barrel blaster powder solvent spray down the bore, then I'd brush with a 45 cal brush, then run cleaning patches a few times. About 3.
Then the dreaded dry patch, which was super hard to get back out, I did this to get anything still wet back out.
I'd fire a cap or two, then reload and it started all over.

Will these conicals like the Hornady make that a bit better? I'd like to get a few more rounds off without having to clean after 5.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I use a slightly damp patch that's nearly dry when I load my rifles. If I simply reload without concern about the fouling left in the barrel, each successive load will get harder. The same thing will occur when I load paper cartridges in my Brown Bess. What has to be done is address the fouling. You are doing that when you run the barrel blaster powder solvent down the barrel and scrub it out with the bore brush. I have found that for me the best barrel blasting powder solvent is water, with perhaps a bit of dish washing soap or my mix of water soluble oil and water (Moose Milk). I run that damp patch down the barrel after each rifle shot. I have turned down the jag a little bit so the patched jag slides over the fouling and bunches up to pull the fouling out of the bore. Fouling really accumulates in a barrel that is pitted so the procedures to keep the fouling under control are important. Two passes with a damp patch may be required. Maybe more if the fouling is excessive. My recommendation is to wipe the barrel with a damp patch between each shot. The fouling build up in the barrel changes the bore diameter for each shot and makes it harder for the patch to hold onto the rifling and engrave on the lands. The result is loss of accuracy. The other alternative when shooting at a range at targets is to use a wet patch and ball with more of the water soluble oil in Moose Milk mix, perhaps as much a 2 parts water to 1 part water soluble oil (Ballistol). You will have to shoot quickly after loading a wet patch to prevent the liquids from contaminating the powder.

I do think that as soon as the load gets harder to seat on the breech, the barrel needs attention. In my experience oil solvents don't clean as well as water and soap for wiping between shots.

Yes the nose of most of the conical bullets will be blunt and you can use your ramrod to seat the bullet. A firm pressure is all that is needed to seat the bullet. There is no need to slam the ramrod as that only deforms the bullet or the ball.

 

[mkpatrick]

Nobody has in stock the Hornady PA Conicals.
Nobody I've found yet.
But what about these?
https://rmcoxyoke.com/product/t-c-maxi-hunter-pre-lubed-bullets-2/
They are the Thompson Center Maxi Hunter Pre Lubed bullets.
They kind of look like the Hornady's.

 

[TrapperPete]

When you are done cleaning, store the rifle muzzle down to let any remaining oils in the breech drain out. The oils will coat the breech and barrel and not leave a puddle of oil in the breech to contaminate the powder the next time you go to the range.

absolutely this was a problem we saw and resolved by storing muzzle down before I ever even heard of it on a forum.

I also run a lightly moisten patch be it spit , speed juice or moose milk

speed juice is 1/3 rubbing alcohol , 1/3 hydrogen peroxide and 1/3 murphy's oil soap

moose milk is 1:10 balistol or napa cutting and grinding oil and water these are both what are called soluble oils they go into solution well in water.

if you read the back of a can of 777 it states "BE CERTIAN NO EMBER IS SMOLDERING IN THEBARREL BEFORE POURING POWDER"

you extinguish embers by running a moistened patch , also having the hammer thumbed back to half cock and making sure the cap or parts of the cap are cleared of and out of the nipple , as you run that patch it pushes air out the nipple if air can exit flame can pass listen for a good hiss every time of the air exiting.

 

[Sparkitoff]

The PA conical is 240 grain. It’s actually nothing like the TC conical that weighs 370 grain. I put them in the muzzle and give it a whack with the palm of my hand. At the range I use a rubber mallet. Once it starts you can push it down easy with the ramrod.

 

[mkpatrick]

I found Thompson Center 275 grain Maxi Hunter conicals at the store. They are pre-lubricated.
The guys at the store said they fire them out of their traditional muzzle loaders so I bought a pack.

I've only ever fired ball out of this rifle and the guy that sold it to me at Muzzle Loader Supply, (its a CVA Pennsylvania with a set trigger), Told me to not load more than 100 grains of powder behind the ball.

If I'm correct, the Hornady .490 ball is 170 grains? I'm not sure now because I can't find the data.

So my worry is two fold;
A 275 grain round with 100 grains of powder behind it will be a much more significant recoil but would I be overloading this gun with these?
Also at 275 grain with 100 grains of powder, we're talking a much slower round right?

I'm looking a for a sanity check here, I need some guidance. This conical thing is a very new thing for me.
I was excited to hear about better accuracy with conicals and the other reports of possibly helping with my rust problem.

I'm gonna measure the diameters of the ball compared to these 275 TC Maxi-Hunters rounds to be sure.

Anyway, anyone use these rounds in their traditional muzzle loaders?

Anyone have a CVA Pennsylvania rifle and can give me their data of how strong a load they usually fire out of it?

I don't want to damage me or the rifle. LOL

Mike

 

[mkpatrick]

Has anyone used JB bore paste to help with rust or pitting? I guess I'd worry how to get it all out after use.

 

[TrapperPete]

177 ish depends on the ball and the lead they vary by a few grains

70-75 gr of black is probably a good place to start with the conical work up find accuracy


after using a copper and rust cleaning product just wash with hot water and soap like after every time you shoot it and re-lube

 

[mkpatrick]

I got my PA conicals in the mail today.
Are these fired with a patch? Same as a ball?

 

[mkpatrick]

Instead of the REAL conical, you could try a box of Hornady PA Conicals. I was given a CVA "Hawken" rifle with 1:60 ROT .50 caliber. It was similar to yours in that it was put away without cleaning for a year or more after it was fired. I cleaned and cleaned until it seemed pretty good based on patches. With a patched round ball load, I would find the patch and it was slightly torn and sometimes had a little orange on it that I figured was rust that just wasnt coming out with cleaning patches. Anyway, the round ball accuracy was not very good. I tried the PA Conicals (they are short, stubby conicals that have a round head like a ball, but a sort of skirt behing it). They were extremely accurate and I used it to take a few deer. After sighting in and shooting and hunting I had gone through 100 PA conicals. What was interesting was that I decided to try patched ball again and they shot great! Patches were in good shape and accuracy was there. I can only guess that by shooting the PA Conicals I somehow wore the remaining rust out of the barrel. I think you're in good shape with that barrel if you keep it up.

How much powder did you fire your PA conicals with?

 

[Sparkitoff]

I tried from 60-90 grains and found 75 grains to be the most accurate load. This is with FFFg. I also used Goex and tried 777 and found the Goex was more consistent with similar groups. The 777 was accurate with good groups but in a 5-shot group I would get one flyer sometimes, it might be 2 out of 10-shots (not every 5-shot group had a flyer) but it was obvious that 2/10 would be outside the group. I tried with and without a wad. Without was definitely the way to go. Shot several deer with the PA Conical and it performed well. They are soft. Most were recovered but had mushroomed substantially and all put the deer down quick.

 

[erhunter]

I got my PA conicals in the mail today.
Are these fired with a patch? Same as a ball?

No patch.

 

[mkpatrick]

Without a patch, doesn't that lead up the barrel?

What do you guys use to get the lead back out?

 

[Sparkitoff]

No leading occurs. I haven't had to do any unusual cleaning to get the barrel shiny. I don't think its going fast enough to lead and they are lubricated. In fact, I wiped the barrel clean of lube before loading. They were more accurate that way for me.

 

[mkpatrick]

I'll fire a few tomorrow,
Thanks for all the advice,
M