Crown & 1828...

[Clydemax]

I am 'new' to the world of muskets. I was just introduced to my very 1st percussion musket at my gf's home. It's been hanging over the fireplace in her dining room for the past 30 years and she and I would like to be more informed on its history. Below are several photos I took and any type of specs I could find. I hope you can help us out with what has been hanging above her mantel.

Overall Length: 62 inches
Barrel Length: 46 1/2 inches
Stock Length: 24 7/8 inches
Bore size: approx. 0.5 inches
Bore Type: smooth
Weight: approx. 9 pounds
Length of Ramrod: 46 inches
# of Barrel Bands: 3
Markings: Crown/1828/61823I30 on lockplate
(see photos for other markings on top of
butt plate & top of barrel)

 

[TFoley]

Looks suspiciously like a Khyber Pass special.

So hit me if I'm wrong.

All the details of a KPS are there - the punched and back-to-front numbers, and the draw-filed fit and finish. Not to mention the inordinately long barrel for ANY kind of a firearm of the period. Even the three-band Enfield, on which this model appears to have been closely based, was only 52" OAL.

Note, too, that percussion guns if this quasi-military type were unknown until the early 1850's. The lock, which looks so like an Enfield Lock, is a frawk - look at the reversed numerals for confirmation.

Nicely done, by the standards of the KP, but still a tourist-trade frawk, IMO.

tac

 

[Clydemax]

Thank you for the info, tac. I'm a newbie to guns... could you please explain the term 'frawk'?

 

[TFoley]

Thank you for the info, tac. I'm a newbie to guns... could you please explain the term 'frawk'?

Ah, yes. It is a portmanteau word we use en famille to describe a fake of any kind, or an object that is not what it seems to be, in a kindly manner, in an attempt to cause the least offence to the owner of the object in question.

If you look carefully you'll see that it's derived from two words - 'fraud' and 'fake'.

It sounds better when I explain it in French, but hey, wednesday is 'Speak English all day' day.

tac

 

[Clydemax]

Thanks tac. I sorta thought it meant something along those lines. No need to 'sugarcoat' your answer. I'm looking for info on this firearm and you've helped out immensely.

 

[Matt85]

looks pretty well made for a fake. ive seen functional india made guns that werent as purty.

-matt

 

[TFoley]

looks pretty well made for a fake. ive seen functional india made guns that werent as purty.

-matt

Matt - I carried a Khyber Pass AK around for a while, and was quite happy to do so. Some of the fake stuff is remarkable. In the REME museum in Arborfield there is a near-perfect Lee-Enfield .303 SMLE - the only way that you can tell that it's a fake is because the numbers on the sights are back-to-front.

I have to admit that I've also seen literally thousands of fakes in my time, and most of it is very good as you guys are now finding out from bringing stuff back from 'stan.

Tell ya what - YOU prove to ME that it's real, bearing in mind my comment about the barrel length of the service rifle on which it is based. Anyhow, a single glance at that ram-rod end should have been enough to convince anybody except maybe Stevie Wonder.

tac

 

[asbrown]

:stir: I think we need to decide just what we mean by real or fake. It's obviously not an attempt to recreate any actual historical firearm. It does have the excessively long barrel common to that region. The small calibre fits with the afghan need to conserve lead and powder due to scarcity. If we assume one set of numbers on the lock is reversed then reversing the 1828 would offer a "rack" # of 8581 instead of an obvious incorrect date for that type of lock. I agree that for what it is it is well made and inlet. Late stock style, lack of ornamentation, use of older surplus parts such as the barrel bands all point to a utilitarian use not an overly decorative fake sold to tourists. The breech looks to have an integral rear sight, or maybe its welded in I can't tell. My guess would be some KP gunsmith built it from surplus parts. I would seriously love to do a hands on inspection/disassembly and then fire it. Whatever it is it's neat and you really should get it looked at by a blackpowder gunsmith and then get it shooting. :thumbsup:
PS it's possible that nob on the ramrod is for the palm, not the ball.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I agree and think the term "knock-off" is a accurate description this gun than "fake". I would classify it a "fake" if an overall attempt to duplicate a given arm was attempted, where it obivously isn't here...given the details.

This has been practiced through out the history of military armament. Find a design that works and adapt it to your own needs. Some are clearly marked and some aren't. The first U.S. muskets were knock-off's of the ones the French "loaned" us. The '03 was a Mauser knock-off and so close that they won a law suit against the U.S. for which they were paid $200K.

How many countries have built AK's now? :hmm: etc. etc. etc.....

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Clydemax]

I have a correction to make: the barrel length is 42 1/2" not 46 1/2". I'll take your advice smoothbore addict and find a blackpowder gunsmith to check it out but after 30 years of sitting above the mantel collecting dust and even a spider or two, I'm not sure I want to be the 1st to shoot it! :wink:
This musket has an OAL of 62". Anyone have an idea what musket this was 'copied' from? Surfing the web, the only type of musket I found with an OAL of 62" was the Long Land Pattern(1722)of the "Brown Bess" flintlock.

 

[pargent]

TRANSITION MODELS between the flint bess and the Enfield.The bess was converted to percusion , then a model evolved as a stand alone pattern.this is what your gun was copied from, but it has the 3 barrel bands of the later Enfield. :idunno:

 

[jdkerstetter]

I don't believe it's a exact "copy" of particular model. The lock and breech definitely resemble the Enfield but, as was pointed out above, the abreviated caliber was probably built for local use.

Just like the "knock-offs" I sited above. Good proprietory weapon manufactured to suit the needs of those building it, possibly with some recycled parts. I don't believe they were making a "copy" of anything but trying to emulate what was already a proven design. Seems simple.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Clydemax]

Thank you all for the info and education about this musket. One last question... Can anyone give me a ballpark value of this musket? Not looking to sell it, just curious.

 

[Robert Egler]

Well if you go on Pawn Stars they'll either say it worthless or offer you $100 for it! :haha:

I don't honestly know what the market value is, but I like the gun myself. You're not selling, and I am out of gun money anyway, having just bought another one, but I personally would offer you about $500 to $600.

That may be way too much or too little for its value, just what I personally would be willing to pay.

 

[Clydemax]

For smoothbore addict... I took a photo of the rear sight and to tell you the truth, after looking at it with a flashlight and magnifying glass, I can't tell if it is integral to the barrel or welded on.

 

[pargent]

Real sights, like that were made as a part of the breech plug tang (usualy).

 

[Clydemax]

That ballpark figure got the gf's attention, Squirrel Tail but she still thinks the musket looks good over her dining room fireplace.
Has brought her a lot of comments and thanks to the members here, she now can tell them more than... 'I don't know
anything about that musket other than it's been up there for the past 30 years.' :grin:

 

[Zonie]

Looks good hanging there.

I agree with the comments that this gun looks like it was built to be used rather than one of the cheap rip-offs that are made to be sold to tourists.
It is too well made to fit into that group.

The smaller than military bore may be done to save lead as was mentioned above or it may be the barrel was made locally and the thicker barrel walls were necessary to provide safety.

 

[TFoley]

I don't believe it's a exact "copy" of particular model. The lock and breech definitely resemble the Enfield but, as was pointed out above, the abreviated caliber was probably built for local use.

Just like the "knock-offs" I sited above. Good proprietory weapon manufactured to suit the needs of those building it, possibly with some recycled parts. I don't believe they were making a "copy" of anything but trying to emulate what was already a proven design. Seems simple.

Enjoy, J.D.

I agree, in total. However, my initial observations were based on the fact that there appear to be 'representations' of Western-use/Arabic numerals on the lock, possibly in an attempt to give the impression to the illiterate buyer that it may have been a former mlitary/government firearm, at least in part.

If that was intentional, then that, IMO, was intent to deceive, and THAT makes it a frawk.

tac

 

[TFoley]

Nice to have, though, no matter the origin.

tac

PS - @Zonie - that was just TWO minutes and I was unable to edit. You really need, Sir, to extend the 'permission to edit' time-out.