copper pots

[Wes/Tex]

Thanks Coot, just couldn't remember. Found a bottle of "British Navy Pusser's Rum" and thought I'd start a new adventure. Maybe I'd better start late and work my way back in time. Got a 50 acre lake out back!! Now if I can figure out how big a quarter of a deck is??!! :rotf: "Batten down them little round windows and poop on the deck"...naw, that ain't right! :surrender:


Got a feeling this won't end well!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A half-pint is two gills, btw. A gill is four ounces or a half-cup. Proper "naval" rum was a bit stronger than often found over-the-counter for modern US alcoholic beverage laws often limit spirits to 80 proof, while naval rum normally was (iirc) 95 proof or a bit higher (measuring devices were not too precise back then).

Take your 750 ml bottle of "naval rum" at 80 proof..., buy a fifth of Bacardi 151, and add two ounces of that to the naval rum..., should bring the naval rum up to proper strength. Put the 151 aside for the next bottle of rum you get, and repeat the procedure...

Enough rum of any sort will often reduce the imbiber to sitting on the floor, looking downward, at one's navel... hence it would then become navel-rum for the condition it renders one. No? :haha:

LD

 

[Karl Helweg]

IF anyone can dig up a list of foods that are safe to cook in untinned copper I would love to see it.

Apple butter must be cooked in a copper kettle to get the proper flavor and color.

Beer, ale, and cider are all cooked in copper kettles if you want to ferment them.

ALL fruit brandies start out as fermented fruit juice, acidic, and are then distilled in copper, pot-stills, as other methods remove the fruit flavoring.

Originally, when citrus juice was first tried out by the British Royal Navy as a scurvy remedy..., it was due to medical papers, one of which was from the East India Company. Using citrus appeared to work.

The Royal Navy then tried to concentrate the juice of citrus fruits by boiling to save space and preserve the juice for long voyages, and the boiling was done in copper, brewing kettles..., which they did not know destroyed the vitamin C due to exposure to the copper. So it didn't work when they tried it that way, and the sailors got got scurvy, but no other ill effects. Seven years later, Dr. James Lind looked at the problem again, and noted that in the previous uses the citrus wasn't cooked. He conducted what is now considered the first "clinical trial" and found the citrus did indeed keep scurvy away.

Vitamin C wasn't actually identified until the 20th century.

LD

Thank you. That is helping me "focus" better on when copper is beneficial like egg whites: http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/si...science_activities/demystifying_meringue.html

I lived in Appalachia long enough to be familiar with copper and corn juice.

I am a little copperanoid since I compare it to cast iron which is inherently healthy (although some whiny people complain about it greying food) while there seem to be multiple forms of possible copper poisoning: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002496.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity , http://articles.mercola.com/sites/...e-may-cause-heart-disease-and-alzheimers.aspx , http://www.cultureofiran.com/making_tea.html , etc... Now having said that I collect copperware too and would like to be more confident using it. I would like a cheap 5-ish qt bronze cauldron for SCA.

Plus a few more samovars and such.

I brew but mostly meade. The rule that I have followed for many decades is to just never use any metal (except stainless as a last resort) or you will get to taste the metal and not like it. You all have me rethinking this and I just might try a small batch of copper brewed hooch.

One of my goals is to collect a painfully period early 16th century field kitchen along these lines:

Sadly cast iron cauldrons magically appeared in early 17th century Jamestown. :hmm: So I am slowly trying to develop the same love for earthenware, copperware, and other documentable cookware.

IF anyone here has evidence of a cast iron European (HRE would be great) pots I would love to see it.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Enough rum of any sort will often reduce the imbiber to sitting on the floor, looking downward, at one's navel... hence it would then become navel-rum for the condition it renders one. No? :haha:

LD

Yes-no-cha-cha-cha! I'm still trying to figure out
why a yard needs an arm. wonder if you can have viking funeral with an aluminum boat! :rotf:

Thanks by the way! :hatsoff:

 

[tenngun]

IF anyone can dig up a list of foods that are safe to cook in untinned copper I would love to see it.

Apple butter must be cooked in a copper kettle to get the proper flavor and color.

Beer, ale, and cider are all cooked in copper kettles if you want to ferment them.

ALL fruit brandies start out as fermented fruit juice, acidic, and are then distilled in copper, pot-stills, as other methods remove the fruit flavoring.

Originally, when citrus juice was first tried out by the British Royal Navy as a scurvy remedy..., it was due to medical papers, one of which was from the East India Company. Using citrus appeared to work.

The Royal Navy then tried to concentrate the juice of citrus fruits by boiling to save space and preserve the juice for long voyages, and the boiling was done in copper, brewing kettles..., which they did not know destroyed the vitamin C due to exposure to the copper. So it didn't work when they tried it that way, and the sailors got got scurvy, but no other ill effects. Seven years later, Dr. James Lind looked at the problem again, and noted that in the previous uses the citrus wasn't cooked. He conducted what is now considered the first "clinical trial" and found the citrus did indeed keep scurvy away.

Vitamin C wasn't actually identified until the 20th century.

LD

I have alwas made that in crocks,along with sour krout and salt pork. Cook used sour kraut and turnip kraut to prevent scurvy on his first voyge. He had to reseve it for the offecers for some time to get his men to eat it.Shortly there after he had to ration it.

 

[satx78247]

Fyi, since the 1820s the main thing that we Northeast Texicans have cooked in copper pots is "white likker". = LOL.

My 95YO mother, about 10 years ago, asked the lady, who owns The Sugar Hill Grocery and Bait, "How's business?"
The proprietress said, "Not so good, Honey. Why I bet that there's no more'n about 20 families still in 'the business'."
(Fyi, Sugar Hill was named in the "Talco Oil Boom Days" because that community of less than 400 souls was a LARGEST "consumer" of sugar in TX. = "Poor John" Parr got RICH selling MANY TONS of cane sugar out of a

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah the Imperial German Navy used kraut instead of citrus juice. Worked very well, and was better for the men overall..., fiber, carbs, and lower alcohol intake, plus easier to produce and cheaper.

LD

 

[Billnpatti]

Copper can react with certain acids in foods. Some of the salts from these reactions are relatively harmless while others like cupric acetate and copper citrate can be toxic when eaten in sufficient quantities. Of the two mentioned, Cupric acetate is the more toxic. It is formed when foods containing acetic acid (vinegar) are cooked in untinned copper pots. Foods containing citric acid such as lemons, oranges, grapefruit, etc will result in the formation of copper citrate but it is not particularly toxic. The primary acid in tomatoes is oxalic acid, which in itself is toxic. So, given that we don't die from eating tomatoes, it is pretty safe to assume that the toxic salt cupric oxalate will not be formed in sufficient quantities to be of concern when cooking tomatoes. Tomatoes also contain both malic acid and ascorbic acid but in smaller quantities than the oxalic acid.

I would be cautious of cooking foods high in vinegar in an untinned copper pot but the other foods, even citrus fruits, will not be of concern. But, I would not store any foods containing acids in a copper vessel unless it is tinned. Even then, glass is a better choice for storing foods. Hazards in storing food is another issue.

 

[Billnpatti]

"wonder if you can have viking funeral with an aluminum boat!"

Answer: Yes, especially if you grind up the boat and mix with iron oxide. But stand waaaay back when you light it because once you light it, POOF! he's gone in one hell of a bright flash.

I love modern Viking funerals.

 

[satx78247]

Doesn't that make "homebrewed" THERMITE?

yours, satx

 

[Billnpatti]

That it would. POOF! He'd be gone.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK, IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP...

Dont' prepare your pickle vinegar/brine by boiling it in an untinned, copper kettle at an event...

Not joking, without the info on the acetic acid, I might have done just that with an applebutter kettle, if I was doing pickles and needed a really large kettle for a really large batch. :shocked2:


LD

 

[hobowonkanobe]

I have a copper Ibrik for making turkish coffee. It WAS tin lined... apparently I am now. Anyway, I have continued to use it long after the tin lining was gone. No probs. Seems the coffee keeps the Green away and I have had no probs with it in 12 years.

 

[Karl Helweg]

There are a number of retinning companies out there like: http://www.eastcoasttinning.com/ Tinning is not too expensive. Pure tin ingots and flux are for sale if folks want to do it themselves.
I can be so "thrifty" that I once impressed a Jewish-Scottish baron but when I see what old copperware can sell for tinning does not look like a bad investment. Then there is the shipping to and from Alaska..... Are there any coppersmiths doing tinning demonstrations at living history events? http://www.marthastewart.com/268808/retinning-copper-pans There are some interesting YouTube videos showing Indian and Turkish coppersmiths at work. When they are fluxing and tinning without gloves I suspect that they might have done it a time or three.

Also, does anyone own and use one of these "potato steamers?"

Since some of my copperware came in lots I have one of these that does not appear to have been used. I understand that it is supposed to have a stainless screen insert to separate the chambers which I have not reproduced yet but it is sort of tiny for practical cooking(?) It would fit about one diced potato(?) I have seem these sell for hundreds of dollars and feel like I am missing a joke or something.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Well Karl, I could look at that a long time and not come up with "potato steamer'...and no I don't. Love the things I learn on this site!! :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was visiting a friend recently who restores old cars. (and, no, I am not going :stir: ) He showed me what he uses to fill dents and holes. He stopped using lead for safety/health reasons, and now uses tin. It comes in a coarse granulation and he melts for use. I presume it comes from auto body repair supply houses.
Save me a trip to Google: what is the melting point of tin?

 

[Black Hand]

Save me a trip to Google: what is the melting point of tin?

449°F (232°C)

 

[hobowonkanobe]

if I re tin my Ibrik, I'll just end up re tinning me.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have been told by a coppersmith that you can't simply heat up the copper and tin, and wash the hot copper with the hot tin and have it "retin" the interior. He said (iirc) you have to treat the copper with muriatic (?) acid first?? Does that sound right?

LD

 

[Black Hand]

Yes.
Muriatic acid = hydrochloric acid. Not sure if it's used in re-tinning

Sulfuric acid is used to clean the oxidation from the copper. What I've read indicated that tallow or Ammonium chloride are used as flux.

Having tried my hand an re-tinning, I can tell you it isn't as easy as it sounds...