Conicals

[Blizzard of '93]

the lee mold slugs have lube grooves in them that hold lube well. I coat them with lee's alox.
if I'm takeing the pistol out into damp weather I also smear a wax/lanolin mix over the slug too.
unfortunately all the '58 rems I have owned - several - have an issue with fouling sticking the pin which requires withdrawing it every 3rd cylinder loading to wipe and grease. or it will begin to bind.

 

[btech]

Even shooting my Remington 44 with Pyrodex, RB and patch over the powder, the cylinder pin fouls quickly. Just a design problem with the Remington. It needed the grooves that the Colt has.

 

[btech]

I read an article about how revolvers during the Civil War were mostly loaded with conicals and wrapped paper cartridges similar to the system used on the 58 cal muskets with Minie balls. They had no pics. Anybody have any more info on this?

 

[azmntman]

U tube vido of a guy doing it, works excellent, I may go to de head shop and get me some rolling papers and roll me a BP blunt or two fer de ROA, maybe a pinner fer de smaller stuffs

 

[Wes/Tex]

The U.S.Cavalry issue mostly paper cartridges with Colt style conicals to the regular U.S. regiments and many state units from northern states. Elmer Kieth has two good interviews from a cavalry ranker from each side who basically say conicals are good for hunting the odd hog but crappy for shooting folks in the wrong colored uniforms. Basically, both old troopers told Kieth if you shoot somebody with a conical, he keeps on fighting you...shoot him with a ball and it's all over! The comments running for both .36 & .44 revolvers. One noted the Dragoon was even better with ball but slow to yank out of a saddle holster...those boys recognized Walkers and Dragoons for what they were, horse baggage. Confederate troopers were sold on the .36 and stated they worked every time. Boys from Texas who wore grey also toted shotguns instead of carbines and left the swords at home or in the ordnance wagons...'dang, heavy nuisance' far as they were concerned. One recorded case where the 8th Texas saw a yankee regiment draw sabers and hollered back in delight. They shoved the reins in their teeth, hanked out a couple 6-shooters each and waded into'em! Usually had the blue coats peppered in .36 balls and buckshot before the two sides even got to sword range! John Hunt Morgan's Partisan Rangers practiced the same technique...4 to 6 revolvers stuck here, there and yonder! :wink: :haha:

 

[crockett]

btech- to the best of my knowledge the ONLY ammunition used by troops in the civil war for percussion revolvers was combustible ammunition. It consisted of a paper/linen/fishgut type case treated if nitric and sulfuric acids so it would completely burn up upon explosion. This was to leave no residue in the chamber that could accumulate from round to round or possibly hold a live ember- causing an accident if another combustible cartridge was loaded in such a chamber. The powder charge for the Army was usually around 17 grains and the conical was rather long and pointy. Six rounds were packaged in a little wood box the size of a deck of cards and a gummed label covered the holes holding the cartridges. There was a wire or string under the label. The shooter pulled the wire/string to rip open the label and then dump out the cartridges. There were around 4-6 different manufacturers that supplied the army. At least 10 million such pistol cartridges were sold to the Union forces for use by the cavalry, officers, etc. I am unaware of any type flasks that were issued along with revolvers- to the best of my knowledge only the cartridges.
These cartridges were loaded "as is" you did not break open the case to expose the powder. The blast of the percussion cap was strong enough to rupture the case and explode the powder. The "combustible" aspect was to eliminate residue.

 

[cynthialee]

I think the combustible aspect helped with insuring ignition. I have shot home made cartridges made with normal cigarette paper and they do not always ignite if you do not break open the paper on the back end. I haven't yet tried nitrated paper but I suspect they will not have as many FTF or any.

 

[satx78247]

IF I didn't want to get into casting, I'd go to www.swaparms.com & post what you need. = Somebody there, I predict, will have what you want & at a decent price.
(I've even gotten things like 7.77mm & 9.31mm, for long-obsolete combination guns, cast bullets there.)

The VAST majority of people who post there are fellow hobbyists & we help each other out.


yours, satx

 

[crockett]

CL: Not to disagree but I've done considerable research on this one and spoken on and off with Terry White who has written numerous books on the subject. There is ample historical writings of the developers of the ammunition, etc. so that no question exists on this one.
Like everyone else when I first got reading on this subject I figured the nitrated paper was so the fire from the percussion cap could "burn through" to the powder. Then there was the way I was making the cases. I saw how to do it in the Dixie Gun Works catalog and with their method there was all this folded and crunched up cigarette paper in the back of the case. You just about had to wait for the fire to burn through or even tear the things open and expose the powder- but that was with TODAY's replica ammunition.
On the original the US Army had very strict controls. They wanted a cartridge that was impervious to water (had to soak the things 4 hours under water and see if they would still fire) and they wanted cases that "fully consumed". You read over and over again about this "fully consume" aspect.
The original cartridge was made of thin tin foil that Colt could only obtain from Germany. This I couldn't believe since I was still of the mind the nitrated paper was used so the percussion cap could burn through. Well, I just had to try it out so I eventually found some thin foil and made cartridges and, sure enough, the cap was strong enough to blow apart the foil and fire the round. The tin was water proof and it would not hold an ember in any residue. I unfortunately found out that the residue was excessive. When I tried to seat the third round into a chamber- I couldn't get it all the way down, the end of the conical was sticking up and worst yet, I couldn't rotate the cylinder. I had to pull the wedge and take the barrel off.
The Colt tin cartridges did a little better but suffered from the same trouble but after 6 rounds instead of 3.
These Colt tin cartridges were wrapped in heavy paper- that is why the little wood boxes are called "packets" the term started with the brown wrapping paper which actually was sort of a packet. In any event Colt then asked the Army if he could change things a little. Colt would make the case out of linen paper and treat it with chemicals (nitrates and sulfur) so that it would "fully consume" and then make the packet waterproof. That's when he switched to the wood boxes with the labels. The "string" was wire and the label encased the entire wood box and was then shellacked to make it waterproof.

 

[crockett]

I should add that there were other manufacturers. D.C. Sage used a fish gut shell that was treated to "crisp". There was another outfit: Johnson & (something-I forget) that didn't use any cases at all. They had something similar to a Pyrodex pistol pellet with conical attached. They shellacked the exterior but most of their ammunition failed the 4 hour soak and the Army would buy orders, cancel orders, an on and off again affair.
It is all pretty interesting stuff, a good book is: http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/stock-items/books/1397
One final thing, the way we make combustible cartridges today is different. The chemical treatment of the paper isn't as good as the originals and if there is a lot of folded up paper in the back- that could effect things, so on a modern replica case- you might have to wait a bit for it to "burn through" or even open the back of the case but that isn't how the original stuff was made.
I've used plain old newspaper for the case. Newspaper is three times thicker than cigarette paper. The way I form the case there is only a single layer over the back. This is actually historically correct- if you look at the Colt patent he has a little "trap door" for the back that gets folded over the sides but the back is a single layer. In any event- if I make a case that way with the single layer I at least get 100% instant ignition. The cap just blasts through. The only problem with the newspaper is that it doesn't fully consume. There is a lot of residue, some unburnt, some possibly smoldering and deadly if anyone tried loading in another round- so I did the newspaper purely for research.

 

[azmntman]

where can we get nitrated paper?

 

[satx78247]

I don't know where it can be BOUGHT but it's easy to MAKE.

Directions:

Buy a few ounces of POTASSIUM NITRATE from the drugstore.
Buy some "thinnest available" typing paper from an office supply store.
(I cannot remember the name but buy the thickness that's THINNER than "airmail weight".)

Make a "saturated solution" of HOT water, dissolving/stirring the Potassium Nitrate in the water until no more will "remain in suspension".

DIP sheets of the typing paper into the solution (a shallow 9x12" Pyrex baking pan works well for a container) & then hang them up (like bed linens on a clothesline) to dry.

Cut into suitable size pieces, make your "cartridges" & ENJOY.

yours, satx

 

[azmntman]

wonder if cigg rolling papers would work? The LONG ones

 

[satx78247]

I have NO clue about that. - SORRY.

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

wonder if cigg rolling papers would work? The LONG ones

Yes, but go to a "Smoke Shop" and look for the thinnest you can get that AREN'T gummed. Wade through the bongs and pipes and try to look semi-hip...when they ask, "What'cha need man?"...tell them and why! :rotf: The expressions are priceless! Oat Willie's in Austin is a good place that I used to get them here...most are a step above the old "Head Shops" of years gone by and run by legitimate folks...they're still fun to mess with. Should see the looks an old fart like me gets! Since smoking is so taboo now, they're where I can find Bugler Gold for rolling! Sometimes I wear my "I May Be Old BUt I Saw All The Good Bands" T-shirt, just to see the stares! Poor children!! :thumbsup: :rotf:

There's a couple techniques for making these pistol cartridges if you just have to load light. You can also load bond paper in cylindrical or tapered tubes with open ends, then push a tiny piece of treated onion-skin paper into the end to seal it...this takes the flash from the cap. Just fill the tubes with powder and glue the conical on top. I've pretty much given up making the things any more. Like the old horse soldiers, I like my revolvers to bark and spit out some knock-down! :wink:

 

[azmntman]

Thanks, I know just the shop (nose rings n such). I am more into accuracy but once n a while I load up a stout load just to show off when the smokeless guys interupt me shooting. Fire six full loads out of the ROA and then leave. That way they cant beg to "see it". I hate lettin just anyone touch my guns, ya know? :nono:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Used to play the same game with babies. Just when the modern guys got used to the .36 Navy banging off, I'd drag out the .58 M.1855 horse pistol and let off a big'un! Fun to watch them all jump and when they'd ask, "What the hell was that?"...I'd tell them, "Mosquito repellent!" :rotf:

 

[crockett]

There are several ways to make them. IMHO the goal should be to minimize the paper as much as possible. I use cigarette paper and the supermarket where I live still sells it.
1. Use a wood dowel. Reduce the dowel to the diameter of the conical. (Put it in a 1/2" electric drill and hold sandpaper around the dowel).
2. The length of the case varies but say you want a 3/4" long case. Taper the last 3/4" of the dowel. The degree of taper can vary but it should be noticable- say from .380 to .25 for a Navy.
3. Pencil mark around the dowel at the 3/4" point as a reference. This completes the dowel/mandrel that will be used to form the case.
4. Template. Use any type paper to make a pattern. Wrap it around the mandrel so that the edges running lengthwise to the mandrel overlap about 3/16" Due to the taper on the dowel the shape of the paper with have sloping sides- or be a trapezoid.
Wrapping a rectangular shape around the mandrel still leaves the base that needs to be covered. The way Colt's patent had it, and the way I do it is to add a little square tab to your pattern- at the bottom -and fold this over the open end.
So your paper will be a trapezoid, about 3/4" from top to bottom and the sides sloping, wider at top and then, midpoint at the bottom/base of the trapezoid a little square that will be folded over to cover the base.
Once this paper pattern is made transfer it to a more substantial template like index card material. This is your template.
TO MAKE THE CASES Take a single cigarette paper and line up the gummed label with the top of the template, trace the outline and cut out the cigarette paper to match. Now line up the gummed label with the pencil mark on the dowel The GUM surface needs to be inside or against the wood. Overlap the sides and glue them together with a glue stick. Fold the trapdoor tab over the back and "crunch" it around the sides as best you can- again gluing it in place with a glue stick.
The case is done. Fill with the powder charge. This charge should be enough powder to fill the paper shell UP TO the gum area that is on the inside, around the top of the case. Once the powder is in the case put in the conical and SLIGHTLY wet the paper, the moisture goes through the paper and activates the glue and glues the shell to the conical. Everything is fragile at this point, hold it a few seconds and then very carefully place in a stable position. Once the wet paper dries the cartridge becomes a little stronger.
I store my cartridges in an Altoids Can and put in tissue paper to hold them still.
SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY. Cigarette paper works okay but there may still be a little residue- if it holds an ember and you put a cartridge in the chamber- it will explode right in YOUR FACE so after shooting a cylinder inspect all the chambers and MAKE SURE it is safe to reload.
PS If an occasional case breaks don't fret- it happened with the originals as well. Always carry in a padded container.

 

[satx78247]

THANKS for the info. - You've done everyone a GOOD deed, imVho.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

One of my "boarding school chums of long ago" has a 8 gauge Irish-made percussion double rifle. = When he sets that one off, it gets EVERYBODY's attention. = It sounds like an artillery piece.
(People have been known to get in their cars & leave the premises after a couple of rounds set off. = CHUCKLE.)

yours, satx