Conical vs patched round ball tissue damage?

[Zeb]

I am new to muzzle loading,but an experienced hunter.I bought my first muzzle loader because my state now has "Mountaineer Heritage season" for a few days in January.It ran from the 10th through the 13th this year,and is only open for those who use the flint,or percussion side lock rifles,or long bows, or simple, non compound recurves.I bought mine just a few days before the season opened,and did hunt with it a couple evenings, but did not see anything I felt like shooting..I bought some of them Pa.Conicals by Hornady at the local sporting goods store.I also bought a box of round balls as well .I thought the price was good at around $14 for 50 Conicals,and a bought $12 for 100 balls.I lined it in with the Conicals,and it seems to be pretty accurate. The rifle is a 50 cal with a 1" in 48" twist from what I've gathered, but I have not measured it..It seems that round balls are favored by more folks than conicals for hunting,and I figure they must get the job done pretty well,but logically it seems like the Conicals would be deadlier. I know they cost more,but they are still pretty cheap if used mainly for hunting,and coupled with the fact that they load easy,I can't help to think I should use them for hunting.Do the conicals expand like a conventional bullet,or do they just bore thru like I assume a ball would.Is the area around the wound on a deer shot with a conical all bloodshot,and jellied? Is it much more destructive than a round ball?..What are the advantages ,and disadvantages of each? Thanks

 

[Britsmoothy]

Logically! Or did you mean assume?

I'm in the camp a ball is better.

Conicals developed for two reasons.
An increase in projectile weight and arguably better arodynamic potential.

They were not necessarily initially developed to kill better.

 

[hanshi]

I've never used anything but ball in my nearly 55 years of muzzleloading; never even tried conical. I have quite a few tales about the awesome damage a round ball does to a deer; a few are gruesome. Suffice it to say that prb does damage all out of proportion to its lighter weight.

 

[tenngun]

Here is my theory. A conical preforms better aerodynamically because of its mass vs air resistance, its CR factor.
In a nut shell, it’s ablity to not give up energy to the air.
Then it hits flesh. it retains that same aerodynamic properties. It holds on to its energy.
A ball is almost the worse possible projectile . It loses energy quickly. However when ball hits flesh it’s very good at delivering energy to the target.
Balls are turning deer French with energies in the 4-600 ft lbs range. Where a conical is hitting with 25-100% more ft lbs energy. Examining the wound we find the same size or SMALLER exit wounds. The conical retained a far higher percentage of its energy going through the deer. After the projectile leaves it doesn’t matter how fast it’s going or how much energy it has.
Today on modren ammo we find hollow points and silver tips ect to turn the highly aerodynamic projectile in to a plain old round ball balisticlly inside the deer.

 

[renegadehunter]

I shot my deer this year with a .54 cal 425 grain Hornady GPB at 50-55 yards. Charge was a 100 grains of 2f real black. It left an exit hole about twice the size of the entry hole. Deer was hit through both lungs and went about 60 yards. After skinning it there didn't appear to be hardly any bloodshot...but when cutting it up discovered that all the bloodshot was under the fat layer. Quite a bit of it for whatever reason actually, about like you'd see with a pretty fast modern unmentionable.
The deer I shot with a RB was about the same distance (not this year though) but only a 75 grain charge. Shot through both lungs and went about 75 yards. Exit hole about the same as the entry. Very little bloodshot, you could eat right up to the hole as some folks say.
So my experience is the conical definitely did more damage, but the Hornady GPB is a HP so that is to be expected. Both projectiles were more than satisfactory in doing their job on a deer hit through its vitals.

 

[rodwha]

The design of the conical will make a lot of difference. A wide meplat is proven to create a larger than caliber sized hole even at low velocities. A ball at these lower velocities seems to create a caliber sized hole looking at point blank revolver shots on ballistics gel, which is roughly the velocity you’d see from a rifle at 75-100 yds. The more blunt the nose the better the damage in general. A .49” hole isn’t small. And is a larger wound necessary? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Carbon 6]

If you're a starvin pilgrim, use a conical. If you looking for memories that few will match, use a round ball.
Know your gun and your limitations. I've seen guys wound deer with both round balls and conicals.

All that said, a heavier bullet will retain more energy over distance. Conicals outweigh round balls, so they hit harder at distance.

And, all that said i still choose a round ball.

 

[30coupe]

For hundreds of years, round balls have been making deer dead. Nothing will make them more dead. The distance at which you can make them dead will probably be a bit farther with a conical, but generally speaking, within the limits of iron sights, a ball will get the job done just as well with less meat damage.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I hunt with both projectiles, except my PRB rifles are .54 caliber. Of course, the PA Conical is a .50 caliber as that is all they offer. I have had very similar performance with them. Granted, the projectiles are close to the same weight (230 on 54 RB and 240 on PA Conical) and I happen to be driving them at close to the same velocity (1680 fps in .54 and 1735 on the PA Conical - average over chrono). I even use the same 80 grain FFFg powder charge.

Below is a .54 roundball recovered from an elk and a PA Conical recovered from a deer. They are essentially the same weight and diameter. Both animals were around the same distance at the shot and went about the same difference after being hit.

I think either is fine for your use and it comes down to a matter of what is accurate and easy to obtain and use.

 

[Zeb]

Thanks for all the replies.I seldom shoot a deer even with a modern scoped rifle at more than 100 yards,and most are in the 50- 75 yard range.I may,and probably will kill deer with each eventually.I know some people disaprove of the practice,but I am generally a neck shooter with a modern H.P. rifle,and take advantage of the fact that a high velocity hunting bullet destroys a lot of tissue .I realize that neither the ball,or the conical are best suited for this,so I guess I will go back to the vitals.

 

[Rich]

It is where you place the shot. The ball/conical makes zero difference. A round ball hitting you at 12, 13, 1400 fps is going to mess you up. No need for much else than a RB. Remember, it is not only the "size of the hole" it is also the "shock" delivered by the projectile hitting the animal. For me, a good PRB with proper powder loads will kill what I am at and not turn my shoulder purple from larger powder loads.

 

[azmntman]

PRB + SHOT PLACEMENT = mmmmm meat

.458 mag + flinching, shooting with eyes closed etc = loooong tracking job maybe no meat, bruised shoulder etc. (or for the ultra lucky a clean miss)

PRB in the boiler room = meat

 

[rodwha]

Like Carbon 6 seems to feel, I think the ball is the more interesting projectile, and would likely produce fonder memories and y’all around the campfire, assuming you hunt with others. A ball sure seems pathetic, and on paper it is, but it sure seems to work quite well.

For myself I figured conicals (.50 cal) are for the offchance I get to hunt something big like elk. But if it were a windy day a conical would be beneficial in that it does so much better fighting wind drift (.490” ball has a BC of 0.069 and a 320 grn REAL is 0.189). I’ve also contemplated a .38-.45 cal topped with peeps or a Malcolm style scope for hunting across fields as I’ve often hunted those. For that I’d want a conical as well, and being a bit smaller caliber I’d certainly want a wide meplat.

 

[shane a gress]

Never seen a deer hit with a round ball I would trade places with.

 

[Griz44Mag]

When I racked and cleaned the large buck I got this year it was hanging on the rack next to a smaller deer shot with a 300 mag. The PRB made a bigger hole thank the 300, in and out. Both deer were quite dead. Mine got all the attention because nobody believed that the PRB could be such a devastating round, punched all the way through taking out 2 ribs on one side and completely severing a 1" chunk of rib on the other side. You can't get better performance than that at 100 yards, which in the scrub oak we hunt in, is all you are going to get.

 

[Logcutter]

I agree with Rich and azmntman, it's where you hit them that matters most. That being said I have killed a lot of deer with prb's. I don't need any thing else.

 

[RHensley]

I've used a patched round ball for over 30 years and have found very few in the deer I've killed. The balls I have found have been flattened out to about double the diameter of the ball. This did a lot of internal damage and the deer didn't go very far. The balls I've found was just under the skin on the opposite side of the animal. I hunt mostly with a 54. So as others have said. know your gun and where it shoots. Either round ball or conical will do the job as long as you do yours. With open sights on an elk I wouldn't shoot over 80-100 yards not because the gun wouldn't kill but that any farther my shot might not be good enough for a quick kill. You owe it to the animal to make as quick a kill as possible.

 

[dragnetbill]

I am new to muzzle loading,but an experienced hunter.I bought my first muzzle loader because my state now has "Mountaineer Heritage season" for a few days in January.It ran from the 10th through the 13th this year,and is only open for those who use the flint,or percussion side lock rifles,or long bows, or simple, non compound recurves.I bought mine just a few days before the season opened,and did hunt with it a couple evenings, but did not see anything I felt like shooting..I bought some of them Pa.Conicals by Hornady at the local sporting goods store.I also bought a box of round balls as well .I thought the price was good at around $14 for 50 Conicals,and a bought $12 for 100 balls.I lined it in with the Conicals,and it seems to be pretty accurate. The rifle is a 50 cal with a 1" in 48" twist from what I've gathered, but I have not measured it..It seems that round balls are favored by more folks than conicals for hunting,and I figure they must get the job done pretty well,but logically it seems like the Conicals would be deadlier. I know they cost more,but they are still pretty cheap if used mainly for hunting,and coupled with the fact that they load easy,I can't help to think I should use them for hunting.Do the conicals expand like a conventional bullet,or do they just bore thru like I assume a ball would.Is the area around the wound on a deer shot with a conical all bloodshot,and jellied? Is it much more destructive than a round ball?..What are the advantages ,and disadvantages of each? Thanks

My two-cents worth:
PRB can be very deadly if you stay within your abilities as a shooter. I think that it's human/hunter nature to load the PRB with a little more powder for hunting to get a "few extra yards" in range; if we are honest with ourselves those "few extra yards" are outside of our abilities as a shooter. So, if you find that your rifle likes a PRB with 65 to 75 grains of powder resist the urge to load it upto 90 grains "just in case."
Conicals are fine; easy loading can be quite an attraction. But, one thing I learned from others on this forum that is often neglected by those new to muzzleloaders is that conicals can move off the powder (up the barrel) as you move around hunting and it doesn't necessarily take severe jarring of your rifle to cause this. I checked a rifle that I was hunting with several years ago after a days hunt and found that the Maxi-ball conical had moved a couple of inches off of the powder; I was glad I didn't have a shot that day. I found that "patching" that Maxi-ball with parchment paper kept it seated.

 

[Carbon 6]

conicals can move off the powder (up the barrel) as you move around hunting and it doesn't necessarily take severe jarring of your rifle to cause this..

That is an excellent point, glad you brought it up.

 

[fleener]

I cant see where a round ball produces better memories? How is that possible? I have used both, quite a bit. I can tell you from my experiences that a round ball does not produce better memories.

The hunt, fellowship with friends and family produces the memories.

Fleener