Conical bullet lengths

[BillinOregon]

Here in Oregon, our muzzleloading equipment rules specify that conicals for big game hunting can be no longer than twice their diameter for use during muzzleloader-only seasons. For someone considering hunting with one of the faster-twist .45s such as a Whitworth or Volunteer, this certainly limits bullet selection. I just measured a Lee 340-grain .458 bullet I normally plink with in .45-70, and it comes in under two diameters in length, but of course it has very shallow lube grooves for use with BP. Anyone else out there hunting with conicals with this handicap? What bullets are you using?

 

[longcruise]

We have the same length limitation in CO. Since I normally hunt elk and deer at the same time, the .45 stays home because while it is legal for deer, it is not for elk.

IMO, these are badly written rules and do not take into account the fine .40 and .45 caliber traditional rifles that would be excellent hunting rifles for deer and elk if the longer bullets were allowed.

That said, there should be some bullets available for your rifle if you look into the molds available from Lee and some of the other suppliers to the BPCR shooting community.

I have one that measures just under one inch in .458 caliber but it will not fit my .45 barrel. Probably would if sized to .456 or .455. Still too long! This bullet is "supposed" to weigh 385 grains but I've never weighed one. However, that would suggest that a bullet in the 350 grain weight range might work if it had adequate lube grooves. Lee may make such a mold.

Most of these bullets for the .45 cartridge guns are made with a fairly long nose, most of which would not ride the bore of our ml guns so that may become an accuracy problem. Only experimentation would tell.

There's always the .45 Maxi Ball, but that would be a bit light I'd think.

Maybe you could paper patch one of the larger .44 caliber bullets? I have a mold that throws a .432 pure lead slug that is .860 long and weighs 320 grains with a nice flat meplat to it. It could be paper patched up to .448 or larger pretty easily. My .45 is a 1:48 and probably would not stabilize it.

Applying the Greenhill formula, it would take at least a 1:32 twist to stabilize it. Greenhill is not the last word, but it usually comes close enough to be sure that 1:48 won't do the job!

You could check out the Mountain Molds site where they have an online design feature where you could come up with an optimum bullet.

 

[longcruise]

Bill, Your question got me thinking and playing around with some of the cast bullets that are on my bench.

I found that a 255 grain Lee .454 (.45 long colt) bullet would slide into the bore of my .45. Did not go easily but it went with finger pressure. Similar molds are availale in heavier bullets from Lee including a 300 grainer.

Also found that a .432 slug could be patched up to .444 with three wraps of 9# 100% cotton bond (.002 thick). Four wraps would take it to .448.

Next time out I'm going to try some of the .454 in my .45 TC. Twist might be a hair on the slow side but it would be interesting to try it.

Good luck.

 

[Runner]

The REAL is 250 grains supposedly.

 

[BillinOregon]

Marmot: I have the very same Lee mould and was asking myself the same question. The Volunteer will be here next week.

 

[longcruise]

Eager to hear your results. Trying to shoot this Sunday and will if the coolant leak in the Wife's car doesn't turn into a two day job!

 

[longcruise]

Bill, shot my club match on Sunday and had some time afterward to try the .45 long colt bullets in my .45 tc barrel. I lubed it with TC 1000+ and found it very difficult to load. I did manage to seat it on top of 65 grains of Goex 3f and since my chrono was already set up, I fired it through. It recorded 1729 fps and went through the paper at .50 yards straight on.

I didn't load any more because of the extreme difficultin of getting the bullet down the bore. The loading problem is a matter of two factors, I believe. First, the bullets were cast (10 years ago :redface: ) from either pure wheel weight or 50/50 WW and pure lead. TOO hard! Also, they measure .454 and that is just a tad too large for ease of loading.

I'll bust out the mold and throw some with pure lead and run them through my .452 sizer and try tat next time out.

 

[BillinOregon]

Marmot: I will do likewise. Wish the Lee bullet had bigger lube grooves. Some of the cowboy shooters are using molds with huge lube grooves so they can run lots of BP through their revolvers and lever guns without having to stop and clean. Bet one of those designs would make a good plinker from ML rifles.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bill: Since you are shooting a rifle, and not a revolver, try lubing the barrel with a cleaing patch given a liberal amount of wonder lube, or whatever else you favor after seating the bullet. This will protect the bore from rusting in high humidity, and soften the fouling as well as better than any amount of grease grooves might have provided. We also found that you get a little more velocity lubing the barrel, and groups tightened up enough to notice.

 

[longcruise]

If you consider the Lee REAL bullet, it has rather small grooves too. You could also use a grease cookie under it too.

One of the cowboy action bullets may be a better choice, as you said. Most of them are roundnose and may not be the best for hunting bullets, but OTOH if they can move out at 1729 fps, even a roundnose should flatten out a bit at typical ml ranges.

 

[tg]

"IMO, these are badly written rules and do not take into account the fine .40 and .45 caliber traditional rifles that would be excellent hunting rifles for deer and elk if the longer bullets were allowed'

it is true there were traditional long conical bullets, but the hunting regs were altered to avoid all the modern stuff and eliminating some of the late percussion bullets was part of the price, I would say that any documentable pre cartridge period bullet should be used but this would be a nightmare to enforce, the main thrust is to get back to the basics of a short range weapon season which is what the ML season was supposed to be, so even many of the traditional type guns/bullets do not fit the mold.

 

[longcruise]

it is true there were traditional long conical bullets, but the hunting regs were altered to avoid all the modern stuff and eliminating some of the late percussion bullets was part of the price,

I understand where you're comming from on this and am in complete agreement with the spirit of the traditional hunt. I've not hunted with a conical myself since the early '80's, but have been happy to shoot round balls and have never felt undergunned.

OTOH, allowing smaller calibers and longer bullets would not substantially increase the overall game getting ability of an ML hunter. The slug guns have an excellent reputation for long range accuracy on the target range, but in hunting situations they are pretty much limited by the ability to judge distance and the ability of the shooter to shoot accurately under field conditions. That makes them, IMO, 100 to 150 yard hunting rifles. At least that's my thought on it.

Still in all, if it comes down to drawing a line in the sand I'll jump to the round ball side every time!

 

[JohnM]

I have used 325 gr., flat base Buffalo Bullets in .45 cal in my 1/48 twist TC hawken with very acceptable accuracy. Never had a tumbler so the twist appears to stabilize the bullet fine. I would guess that a faster twist would even shoot them better? I have not taken any deer with this bullet as I did buy them after the last season. I believe this may be the heaviest bullet I could shoot from my TC Hawken. But of course you guys are talking faster twist rifles. Oh yeah, the bullet measures 13/16th or .8125 tall.

 

[Vaino]

Until a few yrs. ago my son and I shot 410 gr. "Buffalo" bullets in our.50 cal. TC "Hawken" rifles w/ 1/48 twist and found them sufficient for accuracy and elk hunting. Never had a "tumbler" and the groups at 100 yds. were approx. 4" which is quite sufficient for elk and deer. I think the reason for the restriction of less than 2 times the dia. is a good one, seeing some ill informed hunters will shoot conicals in rifles w/ RB twists. We now shoot PRBs in .54 cal. rifles for elk and deer and the change was made for 2 reasons. The conical in a clean bbl moved off the powder charge and had to be checked every so often in a days hunting, which if not pushed back, could have a disastrous effect. Secondly, the 410 gr. conical w/ 100 grs. 2f had an excessive mid-range trajectory heigth and wasn't as versatile as the .54 PRB. Have shot elk w/ both and see no difference in stopping or killing, but wouldn't ever go back to the conicals......Fred

 

[tg]

"Have shot elk w/ both and see no difference in stopping or killing, but wouldn't ever go back to the conicals......Fred"

I admire your standards and salute you Fred.

 

[longcruise]

The conical in a clean bbl moved off the powder charge and had to be checked every so often in a days hunting, which if not pushed back, could have a disastrous effect. Secondly, the 410 gr. conical w/ 100 grs. 2f had an excessive mid-range trajectory heigth and wasn't as versatile as the .54 PRB. Have shot elk w/ both and see no difference in stopping or killing, but wouldn't ever go back to the conicals......Fred

Fred, we had the exact same experiences and came to the same conclusions. My wife was shooting conicals in her rifle and one day as we started from the care she swung her rifle from one side to another and i thought a mouse had poked it's head out of the barrel and ducked back in. It was her bullet! :shocked2: Other hunting partners listened to the story and started checking their conical position occasionaly with their ramrod. Two of the guys caught there conicals part way up the barrel.

Now we all use patched balls for deer and elk and pretty much consider the .54 our minimum. Even a young guy who just started hunting with us shoots patche balls out of his fast twist in-line. Which, by the way, holds up adequate hunting accuracy with 90 grains of ff.

Still, I don't want to stop any other hunter from using their traditional style rifle even if it's design is for slugs.

In my state, the caliber and projectile restrictions came about when our state association succeeded in persuading the wildlife division to exclude in line guns completely. The next year the manufacturers of in lines came back at them with threats of law suits etc. There were no individual in line hunters or shooters that I know of who fought the rules. Only the manufacturers and the dealers!

In the end the compromise allowed inlines, no pellet powder, no scopes, and the caliber and projectile restrictions. It was a hasty compromise and better than nothing, but in the end it left the owners and shooters of some fine traditional slug guns pretty much out in the cold.

 

[roadrat79]

Bill,
You might look at Precision Rifle (http://www.prbullet.com/index.htm) They offer custom ML bullets that fit these regulations for Or. & Co. at an ok price. hope it helps and good luck huntin

:thumbsup: RoadRat