Colt Dragoon caps jamming

[cafi95]

Hi everyone !

Just to discuss about caps jamming in my (Uberti) Colt Dragoon ”¦

So far, I'm using to perform target revolver shooting a Pedersoli .44 caliber R&S. This gun is marvelous as it never jams ”¦ due to its perfect cylinder design.

But when I'm shooting the Dragoon, fired cap prevents the cylinder from further revolving or worst, some copper shells are falling down inside the mechanism !

I tried a lot of things to fix that”¦ with no joy  !

The only way I found to fire my gun properly is to fire one round, then manually turn the cylinder (half cocked) two rounds further, extract the fired cap, so to be ready to fire the next round.

That's a bit boring ! :idunno:

So I wonder how people managed to shoot those guns during former days when they need them for fighting or to save there own life ?

Is that problem specific to Colt revolvers or would the replicas not designed as the original ?

(I'm a very lucky owner of an original Union Army Remington revolver (oct. 1863 ; picture : my avatar) that gives no caps trouble at all !)

Philippe

 

[Billnpatti]

Without examining your revolver, it is difficult to give you a definitive answer. However, I will venture a guess. I would guess that your Pedersoli may have #11 nipples while your Uberti may have #10 nipples. As you know, if you try to use #11 caps on a #10 nipple, they will not fit properly and are prone to come off. If the #10 nipple is on a revolver, the #11 cap will fall off and jam the mechanism. Check your nipples to be sure they are the proper size for your caps. If your Uberti nipples are #10, you can get the correct #11 nipples from Track of The Wolf. Give them a call and tell them wwhat you need and they can tell you exactly which #11 nipples will fit your revolver. Without being able to examine your revolvers, this is only a SWAG (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess).

 

[Many Klatch]

Try flipping your wrist to the right after each shot before cocking and advancing the cylinder. That may "toss" the empty caps out of the way.

Many Klatch

 

[hawkeye2]

The Remington and R&S revolvers are a much better design with respect to cap jams. The first issue with the Colt is the large window in the frame for the nose of the hammer which allows the cap to fall back into the action. There is a complex repair for this which isn't often done in which the nose of the hammer is narrowed and the opening in the frame closed up. Look at your Remington to see what I mean. The next problem is the little cut in the face of the hammer which is there to engage the safety pins on the back of the cylinder. You can fill this notch with a good 2 part epoxy (JB Weld here in the US), weld it closed or reface the hammer to eliminate it. The final problem is the nipples themselves. Buy a top quality replacement nipple such as Tresco brand. I replace the nipples on all my revolvers, usually before I even shoot them for the first time however just replacing the nipples and using a proper fitting cap has never eliminated the problem with a Colt, only made a bad situation a little better. Finally, a weak mainspring will contribute to the troubles so be careful if you lighten the mainspring to improve the trigger pull.

 

[pargent]

+1 Yes proper TOE for shooting a Colt is an absolute must for trouble free use.And you don't even have to modify your gun just your shooting style and outlook .

 

[cynthialee]

Try flipping your wrist to the right after each shot before cocking and advancing the cylinder. That may "toss" the empty caps out of the way.

Many Klatch

yep

I give it a bit of a pop to the side as I cock the hammer, all the while bringing the muzzle up.

There is a bit of a trick to cocking Colts guns. Once you figure out how to do it just right you will rarely get jams.

 

[Paul_R]

This video might help. Not your specific gun but very common to the type.


[youtube]BfTGjm3IDYw[/youtube]

 

[Zonie]

This problem was an inherent design flaw with the Colt pistols.
As was mentioned, the large open area, cut thru the frame does nothing to keep the fired caps from falling into the works, so to speak.

Early in the designs of the pistols following the Colt Walker, a milled slot in the recoil shield was added to help minimize the lock ups caused by the spent caps from binding between the rear of the cylinder and the frame.
This milled slot extends from the hammer notch to the loading relief and was used on all subsequent Colt Cap & Ball revolver designs. The Walker does not have this feature.

About the best way of avoiding the problem is to leave the hammer down after the shot, rotate the pistol so that the grip is parallel with the ground and the muzzle is pointed slightly downward and then fully cock the gun.

If everything goes as it should the spent cap will rotate with the cylinder into the slot I described above and it will fall free of the gun.

This doesn't always work so I guess it is just one more thing that helps us relate to the men who lived during the times when these pistols were used and the problems they were faced with.

 

[cafi95]

Thanks so much for these advices.

I already tried some of them ... but not all !

The video is very interesting ...

Well, I do believe the main problem on my gun is due to the nipples.

- n°10 caps are too small and n°11 are too large ! Nevertheless, n°11 works better.

- the blowback is not a concern as the cap jamming is the same with or without powder load.

- I'm already practicing the right wrist movement when cocking ... it improves slightly the problem ... but many times, the cap is so jammed that cocking is quite impossible without the help of the left hand on the cylinder !

- When I purchased this gun two years ago, I tried to change the nipples. Unfortunately, Uberti has changed its nipple thread and I was not able to find any nipple that fits. Perhaps nowadays would I be luckier ! I'll ask Track of the Wolf. That would probably be "the" solution.

- At last, I'll will fill the hammer hole used for the cylinder safety pins with metal-epoxy ... just to prevent copper shells falling down.

What's tricky ... but not hopeless ! :v

Philippe

 

[pargent]

Make sure the RWS no11s are not the longer ones that are meant for rifles not revolvers, FYI I have a Uberti Dragoon and have not had any issues with the nipples or caps , people seem to be way to quick to modify things to solve a simple problem usually operater error.

 

[cafi95]

I'm using regular (so not magnum) CCI n°11 caps.

After percussion (with no powder load), they're smashed and opened on one side ... often preventing the cylinder from further revolving !

RWS n°1075 are worst about that concern on that gun.

Philippe

 

[AZbpBurner]

There may be a legit use for the RWS #1075 caps after all!! When your #10 & #11's don't fit right, try the RWS/Dynamit Nobel caps. Currently they are packaged in little red plastic 'tins'.

Over the decades, it seems that, whether Navy Arms or RWS labelled caps, the Dynamit Nobel #1075 caps never fit the scheme of things in any of my C&B revolvers; too big for some nipples & too small for others, I simply switched to Remington & CCI's.

I've read of folks having problems with nipple-to-nipple dimensional variances in both Uberti & Pietta, but dismissed it as simply tantrums of oversensitive shooters ... until MY Uberti 2nd Model Dragoon arrived (and again on another occasion with an 1862 New Model Police).

My first 2 Uberti/Replica Arms Colt 1860 & 1861's were built predating the glitzy 21st Century, Hi Tech machining equipment both Uberti & Pietta use today. Maybe coupled with good old 'fashun machinist know-how, nipples are a uniform diameter & #10 CCI or Remingtons fit great - no problem with spent caps hurling themselves towards Colt innards - unless you need to use the movie star method of elevating the muzzle to around 45º to cock the hammer ...

For my 21st century, hi tech milled & fit Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon, fit & finish is superb down to one detail: apparently they still need to go out back behind the factory, shoo away the chickens to frequently dust off the foot-pedal grinding wheel they use to build nipples - mine came in an alternating group of both too small or too big.

The 1862 looks cool & beyond the one section of cylinder between two flutes that drags just a little to bottom out on the frame, the nipples were uniform diameter - OUTSTANDING! ... not ... they're short enough that the hammer bottoms out on the frame before contacting the nipple face or cap.

My remedy was to simply install Treso/Ampco nipples on each revolver. Not only are they tougher than the regl'r steel nipples, they're dimensionally identical (not only long enough, but all of the same diameter & taper made for #11 cap use), so the only controversy remaining is the Remington vs CCI cap argument - and I like BOTH (whichever is on sale).

Properly fit caps tend to stay put until you cock the hammer, so you do need to pay marginal attention. Too small & during firing, they are pushed further down along the nipple taper & may split immediately before or during firing & come off the nipple prematurely. Too large & they can just fall off on their own ...

If you need to pinch your caps to make them stay put before firing, you need either smaller caps or larger nipples.

Jedediah Starr Traqding Co. has the Ampco Nipples, and
Track of the Wolf has a variety of better steel & also stainless.

 

[cafi95]

Many thanks for this very interesting analysis.

Next time I enter my favorite gunsmith shop I'll get a n°10 CCI caps box (this gunsmith has so interesting antic guns that when in ... I spend half a day looking at everything ! :shake: )

Your fully right. A slight changing in the caps diameter would perhaps overcome the problem.

Changing the nipples would be tricky as the thread has been changed by Uberti ... trying other caps is far much simple !

To follow ... :wink:

Philippe

 

[AZbpBurner]

I can't imagine Uberti putting the goofy-eye on your nipple threads. 1/4-28 is the standard thread for Walker & Dragoon. You will need a wrench made for the Walker to remove & reinstall Dragoon nipples.

I had the usual problems with my Dragoon & after installing the Treso/Ampco nipples, all is calm & orderly when shooting the Dragoon out @ the range.

 

[cafi95]

Yes, I do think you're right.

Treso/Ampco nipples look really great ... I will have a try. :v

According to you what is the best provider ? (the best for me would be to order the nipples via the net and make them send to France).

All the best !

Philippe

 

[AZbpBurner]

I've used Treso/Ampco nipples for many years. In 1970 my Dad completed a percussion rifle & shortly thereafter, I built a somewhat matching pistol - both still have the original Ampco nipples in use today.

My Dragoon, a Remington or 2 and an 1862 Colt are all fitted with Ampco nipples & all perform perfectly.

I'm not sure what problems you may encounter with export regulations, but you may want to go ask at some of the retailer's websites to see if they can ship overseas:
www.jedediah-starr.com has a big variety of nipples

And, just to see if it may be easier, try www.marstar.ca

They are the Canadian distributor for Pietta & some other blackpowder arms & if they don't have parts, they may be able to refer you to more sources.

Also, check with: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showuser.php?uid/4990/

He seems to be a displaced Pommy fellow, traveling between GB, Canada & the northwest US. I suspect he's running 1 step ahead of international officials :wink: , so if anyone can give you sound info on getting nipples outta N. America & into the Frankreich, it would be he.

Actually, he's been a wealth of information over many years on several gun forums, especially regarding blackpowder firearms.

 

[cafi95]

Many thanks really for all these informations.

Yes, I know regulations could be a problem ... I hope just nipples sent overseas are not involved by them.

That's a bit foolish as these guns are fully allowed in France ... but they must be purchased in Europe. Officially due to proofing standards .. (but that's the same problem for antic guns ... that are allowed to be freely fired without to be proofed again !).

Well I'll have a ask to any of these providers and to this forum fellow.

Of course I'll send on that topic the results of my inquiries.

Many thanks again :wink:

Philippe

 

[cafi95]

Hi everyone ! :v

Some (good) news about my nipples changing.

I succeeded in purchasing 6 Treso Ampco nipples from Jerediah for my Dragoon. I've got n°11-50-136 model designed for Walker (and Dragoon probably) revolvers.

The nipples fit rightly the thread but unfortunately are a bit too long !

When the caps are plugged in, the cylinder is unable to rotate !

Well, that problem looks easy to solve in shaving the nipples slightly and to thin them thereafter.

What would be the best process to do that, in order to remove exactly the same amount of metal from the whole nipples ?

Thanks for any advice :wink:

Philippe

 

[AZbpBurner]

I'm using the very same Ampco part # for my Draqgoon & they fit fine. Apparently there's a distinct dimensional difference between the Euro & US versions of the Dragoons?

A jeweler's lathe would be ideal, but a drillpress or solidly secured power drill would suffice. Carefully measure the diameter of the new nipple at top & middle.

Even though the new nipples are too long, fit a fresh cap on one to get the feel of how it seats.

Spinning the nipple secured in the drill/press chuck, carefully file to shorten the length of the nipple, stopping frequently to measure for overall length.

You will want to duplicate the overall length of the original nipples, maybe just .001" longer.

After all are the same length, spin & remove metal with a fine file, measuring the diameter to duplicate the original end and middle diameter measurements made earlier. At this time fit a fresh cap to see how it feels while seating.

Repeat 5 more times, then go shooting.

No smoking, no coffee, caffeinated beverages, or alcohol, no excessive sugar or red M&M's, and NO sex for about a week beforehand, and your hand and eye will be steady enough to master the task.

 

[cafi95]

Many thanks for that !

I have at home everything to do that job ... just gonna buy a new accurate caliper !

And I'll take my time to do that carefully.

NO sex for about a week beforehand

: sure ? :hmm:

But as you said nothing to see between the original (Uberti) nipples and the Treso Ampco ones ! They look really great ...

So just to wait a couple of weeks ... for the results !

You're from a great help. :thumbsup:

Philippe