Cold Dragoon and Lee conical 200gr.

[cafi95]

Hi !

I used to make some tests with my Dragoon (Uberti) and conical Lee bullets.

Powder load (S2) : 34 gr.

As I know this conical bullet is not fully suitable for low twist barrel, I wanted nevertheless make them work.

With that powder load and the lubricated bullets (and nothing more), the results were very good at 25 yards, even better than round balls.

But at 50 yards, the bullet dispersion is very bad and the main impacts about one target hight higher than at 25 yards.

When using round balls at 50 yards the results are perfect !

So why these troubles at 50 yards ?

I do believe that the twist movement is not powerful enough.

I have no idea to understand why the gun shoots higher at 50 Yards than at 25 ? :hmm:

Does any one already performed the same shootings ?

I will be very interested to share any point of view on that point.

All the best.

Philippe

 

[nkbj]

Are you getting greater vertical dispersion at 50 yards or side to side as well as vertical?

The reason that I ask is that in percussion revolvers it is not unusual that the heavier the bullet to have greater shot to shot vertical dispersion. In essence it is same as frequently occurs with shorter barrel percussion revolvers.

 

[cafi95]

Unfortunately I fear dispersion is side to side as well as vertical !

Nevertheless, the mean value of the vertical shots is higher that the one with round balls.

I can understand why the shots are less accurate with the conical Lee bullets because of the low twist of the barrel and the lack of energy to stabilize the bullet in rotation. But why is it shooting higher ?

One French shooter told me it was due to the recoil effect ! I'm very doubtful about that explanation. :nono:

I must conduct some other trials ...

To follow !

Philippe :wink:

 

[M. De Land]

I agree with what your friend said about recoil making it shoot higher at 50 than with round balls. Mike D.

 

[pargent]

YES they don't seem to shoot conicals well at all, with round ball they are good .

 

[Leatherbark]

Due to the weight, recoil effect and whatever those conicals probably have two zero points as all projectiles normally do. Zero at 25 yards, bullet still rising at 50 yards. Somewhere beyond 50 it is dropping in trajectory. The problem is you would not have the accuracy with that twist to determine where the second zero is. This is my theory. Not scientific at all. Increasing the charge may lower the POI or raise it. Experimenting is the only option we have with these things. Fun most of the time. LOL

Good luck

Bob

 

[AZbpBurner]

Over 40 years of Cap& Ball shooting has led me to the conclusion that conicals, whether .36 or .44, original brass mold design, or Lee or more contemporary designs, aren't going to be as accurate as RB's. Hotter or lighter loads don't seem to matter. Colt or Remington models don't seem to matter ... or even ROA's.

When someone wants to use conicals, it's often because of wanting to duplicate original loads or Gov't Contract paper cartridges using conicals. More often the thought process leans towards the coolness factor that RB's are more low tech, 'old school' so Conicals just gotta be 'mo betta.

When you fire your cap & ball Colt, Rem or ROA, what emerges from the muzzle ain't granny's old spherical ball, but actually a slightly cylindrical slug with nearly hemispherical ends.

After decades of using Pyrodex, Goex, Swiss, 777, American Pioneer & 'prolly some other propellants along the way, and also using a buncha' various balls & conicals, I've settled on RB's.

Your results may vary, but outta all my Uberti's, Piettas, & Rugers, conicals may work, but they're NEVER as accurate as good ol' RB's.

 

[cafi95]

I fear it would also be my own conclusion !

That makes me sad as I've just purchased the Lee 200 gr. conical mold !

But I must admit the barrel twist will never fit any heavy conical on a long distance. At 25 yards, the spin movement could be sufficient to stabilize the bullet ... not at 50 yards. Or perhaps with a full loaded Walker ! :idunno:

So I'll reverse back to RBs ! :redface:

Thanks for your advices. :wink:

Philippe

 

[AZbpBurner]

I fear it would also be my own conclusion !

That makes me sad as I've just purchased the Lee 200 gr. conical mold !

But I must admit the barrel twist will never fit any heavy conical on a long distance. At 25 yards, the spin movement could be sufficient to stabilize the bullet ... not at 50 yards. Or perhaps with a full loaded Walker ! :idunno:

So I'll reverse back to RBs ! :redface:

Thanks for your advices. :wink:

Philippe

Having either ammunition or even a bullet mold for a gun you don't yet own is the perfect rationale to go buy one. In fact, In Arizona, as I recall, it's mandatory.

You've got the 200 Gr. Lee mold already, so your next step will be to decide on either the Walker, or maybe even an 1858 Remington, just for research purposes :wink: You'll still get better RB performance, but the conicals work pretty well.

 

[cafi95]

Well, the Lee 200 gr. is perfect with my Dragoon until 25 yards ... so I guessed it would be ok at 50 ... and I bought the mold (before that, I managed to get some bullets on the net for my trials)!

But at 25 yards, I must use with my conicals a greater powder load for the same results as for a RB.

As Swiss BP is very expensive, I would rather use RBs !!

So I'll use my conicals with a big load in the Dragoon just to impress and smoke my shooting neighbors !! :grin:

Philippe

In addition : I've already a 1858 new model Remington, but an original, so I never excess 15 gr. ! For the Walker ... why not ?

 

[curator]

Uberti Dragoon models were made with a twist rate of 1 in 48" until 2002. After that the twist rate was increased to 1 in 18". The faster twist should shoot the Lee conical quite accurately. Twist is only one factor with C&B revolver accuracy. Chamber diameters are often several thousandths under groove diameter which will considerably degrade accuracy if not corrected. My Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon has the fast twist rifling that measures .457 in the grooves but had chamber diameters of only .452. The 200 grain Lee conical bullet shot poorly, but .454 round ball accuracy was OK. I opened the chambers to .458 and switched to the Lee 220 conical made for the Ruger Old Army. A bit of judicious lapping resulted in slugs that dropped from the mould at .459 and shot great at 50 yards, if a bit (2 feet!) high. .460 round balls are a mite more accurate but you have to shoot from a rest to notice.

 

[cafi95]

Sure. :wink:

And to make the right job, I should do those measurements to know exactly what happens.

That's in fact the right way to handle the problem and to find the solution.

I would be a bit scared about opening the chambers if necessary ... but why not (if it's done by a good gunsmith).

First of all I must look for a good caliper ! :hmm:

Right ! Shooting blackpowder guns is not only pulling the trigger ! That what makes them so interesting.

To follow ...

Philippe

 

[cynthialee]

I think the pistol conicals have use in close in hunting if you are into revolver hunting. A roundball may be a bit more accurate, but if I am going to shoot something big like a hog or a deer at 25 yards or so with a revolver I think the extra lead would help.

Now personally I wouldn't hunt with a revolver, unless it was a Walker or Dragoon. I have a nice .50 single shot that will do the job better.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Might just add a couple Elmer Keith's thoughts from his books of years back. He'd known and extensively spoken with still living horse soldiers back in the teens and 20's. Actually, one each from North & South. Their general comments ran that the round balls delivered on men and critters better than conicals, one even taking a couple boars with shots behind the ears from horseback! Their general feelings were that conicals were only good for deep penetration, useless to them in their circumstance. Of course, these were two men who used percussion revolvers for life and death on a regular basis...modern use will obviously vary. Most of us would be served with heavier guns and loads, but these guys did their own thing their own way.

 

[cafi95]

That was things I have read too.

And just to consider that Lee 200 gr. conicals are very different from former conicals used by those men.

Dealing with my use of conicals in my Dragoon, that's just for fun to understand why it works or not. For experimental purposes !

From another hand, we're not allowed in France to hunt with any handguns (and generally speaking to carry them wherever we are expect for defense purposes with of course a special license).

My challenge was to make these conicals working until 50 yards. Perhaps it is impossible due to the rifling twist ... or to undersized chambers ... or lack of energy ...

I would be happy to identify the actual reason ! :hmm:

Just to notice my two others C&B revolvers (Pedersoli R&S and an original Union 1858 Remington) are only firing RBs with a great accuracy.

Philippe :wink:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Philippe, I understand perfectly. When I started playing with muzzleloaders back in the mid 1960's there weren't nearly as much available, nor was there many places to go for help. I suppose I've tried about everything once and still have all my fingers...God really does look after idiots, I'm living proof!

Using conicals in handguns has been going on for a long time, sometimes with mixed results. All you can do is try and see what results you get. The reason you have less than hoped for results may be any of the reasons you mentioned, or something else entirely. Just keep experimenting. Each gun is a unique unit and what works in one may give erratic results in another of the same make. Modern replicas don't always have the same twist rate and rifling measurements as originals either. Sometimes velocity changes give better results, sometimes not. That may be why "happy hour" was invented!

 

[cafi95]

That's perfectly true !

And that's the reason why these kind of guns are so interesting ... always something to experiment or to think about ... that's endless considering the available choice of bullets and loads ... (and guns obviously !)

When I come back home from shooting, I always thinking every next days to the results, bad or good and to what can be further done for improvement.

Even the cleaning hours are a great pleasure !

And I would not speak about the historical point of view ! To think about the time where men had to hunt or fight for their own life. Shooting those guns is learning the history that comes along.

Some years ago I was very lucky to purchase an original Remington Union army revolver (oct. 1863), which was fully engraved probably after the civil war ... perhaps in Europe ... and to think about its actual history.

It's now stowed carefully in a box and when I take it, that's with white gloves ! ... Sometimes I shoot it ... with a very great emotion.

After 150 years, it is as accurate as my brand new Pedersoli R&S ! Who used that gun before ? One will never know. :idunno:

Philippe

 

[nkbj]

Unfortunately I fear dispersion is side to side as well as vertical !

Nevertheless, the mean value of the vertical shots is higher that the one with round balls.

I can understand why the shots are less accurate with the conical Lee bullets because of the low twist of the barrel and the lack of energy to stabilize the bullet in rotation. But why is it shooting higher ?

One French shooter told me it was due to the recoil effect ! I'm very doubtful about that explanation. :nono:

I must conduct some other trials ...

To follow !

Philippe :wink:

In that case the dispersion on target is most likely due to the flat backside of the bullet not being sufficiently perpendicular to the centerline of the bore when it exits the muzzle.
Shooting higher on target is due to how much the barrel rises prior to the bullet exiting the muzzle.

 

[cafi95]

I must admit I never cared about how is the flat size of the bullet when loading. Sometimes I manage to put it upside ...

From another hand I was long to understand that the recoil could send the bullet higher ... because I thought the recoil effect only acts when the bullet is outside of the barrel. In fact the recoil force works as soon as the bullet speeds up.

But there is another important fact I just noticed yesterday that can explain high shootings : my view is getting worst and so far short-sighted, I'm becoming long-sighted. So as I'm not able to see clearly the foresight ... I unconsciously rise it to see it better.


Yesterday, all my shootings with my R&S were too high. Nothing has changed on my gun.

So the main problem to solve is to find the right shooting goggles. Before doing anything else !

Philippe

 

[Wes/Tex]

I'm with you there Philippe, my eyes have gotten to the point that sights and target get fuzzy. Even new glasses only help up to a certain point. A visit to an ophthalmologist might be a fair consideration. Mine made things better, but can't give me back my 20 year old eyes! :wink: