Cap-N-Ball Shooter's Only

[montanadan]

My passion is C/B and single shot pistols.I do not own anything really fancy,everything that I own you can by over the counter or the internet. I do shoot a lot,150 balls last night ,100 tonight,and 100 thurs night. This is not about which is better Uberti or Pietta,I only to want to help some shooters just as everyone has helped me. If you are starting out with a new Cap-n-Ball revolver(you might want to read Gatfeo's and MEC's posts), I think one the important things you can do is to get yourself comfortable with your new revolver(actually read the owner's manual),Understand the recommended loads. Before you shoot your new revolver completely take it a part and thoroughly clean it. MEC has a post at Graybeards(with pictures)under cap-n-ball for dissassembly and re-assembly in correct order. While you have your revolver a part,look for burrs,and rough edges,especially the hand channel in the frame. Check the hammer,and the slot in the frame,generally you will find rough marks from machining. With a simple piece of Emery cloth gently smooth out(by hand),the hand channel(I use a small piece of dowel filed flat on one side with a piece of emery glued on)just make it smooth. Same for the slot in the frame for the hammer,by hand,just make it smooth to the touch.The hand assenbly(optional-see Mec's pictures),lay a piece of emery cloth on a flat surface(with the pin up)lightly polish,by hand,just to where it feels smooth to the touch. On the pin side(hand assembly) again lightly polish. Care must be taken NOT to snag the hand spring, because you will Break it. Make sure the pin on the hand assembly,rotates freely in the in the hole on the hammer.The two screws,one for the trigger and the othe for the hammer,make sure the hammer and trigger pivots freely on these screws.Trigger and bolt spring,again with a piece of emery cloth layed flat,gently polish both exterior sides.Try to center this spring as much as possible(during re-assembly),also check the roller on the hammer,I have seen these rusted tight.We are not trying to do a custom action, trigger job,or change the timing,indexing of the revolver(hopfully that was correct) from the factory.Just trying to get a smoother, cleaner and crisper action,this will reduce a lot of internal failures. Before I re-assemble,I clean all the parts and frame again. I lube all the parts,screws,and frame with Break-Free(no debate on oils,use what you want),I let them sit over night and re-assemble in the morning. The wedge pin,well I set my cylinder gap at .010" to.012"(this can vary),again no debate,just works for me(distance between cylinder and barrell forcing cone). I hope I have helped someone,and have not bored to many .I tried to keep this simple.Actually took me longer to type,I think I could have done two colt's during this time...Respectfully Montanadan (what?with my great typing skills and all)

 

[mec]

The Voice of Experience. Great Post

 

[montanadan]

Mec-I appreciate that ,Could you ask Claude about posting the assembly and dissambly for Colt's,the one over at Graybeards.I think that would help a lot of folks...I am still waiting on the book. Thanks again...Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

Here is that disassembly picture. If someboyd wants to sticky it, they are more than welcome.

And a link to the Remington Disassembly:
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/1858brkdownsml.jpg.

Best bet would be for a board to copy and save these pictures as the free host is not reliable and goes off line for weeks at a time. The links may be broken from time to time

Graybeard does not like the size of my pictures, so I don't post any more of them over there.

 

[bezoar]

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/1858brkdownsml.jpg


Quick question fellows, how is the base pin.cylinder guide pin for the 1858 remington removed? Diassambly diagrams show it removed, but actual photos never do.... is it hard to remove from the gun?

 

[mec]

All you have to do is half cock and unlatch the loading lever and pull it down so that it no longer traps the head of the base pin. The base pin slides forward and the cylinder is freed.

There is a minor tediocity involved with putting the cylinder back in. It trys to slip into the frame window too far pretty much forcing you to wiggle it around or push it all the way through. You can take it out the other side easily by lowering the hammer all the way. This is mainly a problem with new, stiff guns and gets real easy after a bit of shooting.

 

[bezoar]

You dont understand the question, i know how to drop the loading lever and pull the pin forward to get the cylinder out. My question was: How do you remove the base pin from the gun, as in put the base pin in the garage and the frame in the attic?

 

[Mr Nick]

The screw holding the loading lever in keeps the cylinder pin from coming all the way out. Remove loading lever screw and loading lever.

 

[montanadan]

This might be a good place to talk about springs and their quality? If you have just purchased a new Cap-n-ball revolver,congradulations.For those of us who have older pistols and have shot them a lot,or just had them for a while,I would highly recommend replacing the springs. The newer springs(factory) are a whole lot better,the older springs will fatigue,and break(mostly the main spring),trigger/bolt spring will generally just fatigue. When the bolt/trigger spring fatigues,it will affect the timing and lock up the revolver(creating early or late timing of the bolt=drag marks on the cylinder).I am talking about Colt style clone's here.Remmies will sometimes have small drag marks on the cylinder,do to lack of 'flutes' leading to the cylinder lugs.Before installing the new springs,look them over,check the length,as well as looking for burrs(these are just stamped out).Next thing I DO,is polish the sides of the main spring,and make sure it does not bottom out on the hammer when the pistol is at full cock(good time to check the roller in the hammer,make sure it moves freely).I also polish the external sides of the tigger/bolt spring(see Mec's picture),depending on you revolver the trigger/bolt spring will rub on both sides of the frame.Good time to check the frame for smoothness and burrs.I also polish the tips of the trigger/ bolt spring(very gently and by hand),they actually work in a sliding action. This does not generally take more than just a few minutes. Why polish the sides of the springs,I MY OPINION, makes them last longer(I am not going to debate this,just works for me),as for the trigger/bolt spring.You can assemble your revolver,leaving the trigger guard off,(and cycling) you will see the action of the trigger/bolt spring.I hope this has helped..Just rying to keep it simple..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[montanadan]

The Hammer-this is what I do on MY OWN[url] pistols.Again[/url],everything is done,BY HAND,and in moderation.Those of you that feel that a little is good,and a lot should be better,You are ON YOUR OWN! A lot of this is simply smoothing,and common sense should prevail. A lot us have older revolvers that were made with softer materials(steel),this is a good time to look at the face of the hammer(the part that actually strikes the cap).Make sure the face is relativerly flat,and does not have excessive peening(some faces will acually take on rolled over appearance).Some will take on the shape of the nipple,if yours' looks like this I would replace it.Why replace? Generally speaking you have worn through the hardening(or lack of),and the soft metal is now exposed( and it is not going get better)The new hammers are made a heck of a lot better,much tougher material.Good time to check the cam (see MEC's picture).Assuming the hammer is good(if yours looks like the one MEC's Picture ,it probably is)look for burrs,especially in and around the sear area,drag marks,especially in the area where the screw that installs the hammer in the frame.(The BIG hole in the hammer)If you look closely at the picture,you will see the beginning of these marks.With emery cloth(by hand),lightly polish at and below the drag marks.(both sides)Just enough where it feels smooth to the touch,at this time lightly radius the edges,just enough so they feel smooth to the touch.Hopefully you are not trying to remove the machine marks(remember what you take off can not easily be relaced),at this time I lightly radius the front edges of the hammer that come in contact with the machined slot in the frame.Now, with the face of the hammer facing you,notice the notches towards the bottom of the hammer(about2/3 of the way down).These notches are the half-cock and full cock detents(notches),Proceed with geat care and moderation. Lightly polish(by hand,With emery cloth) the Outside edges(not the notches themselves,polish with a downward motion)and lightly radius,if it feels smooth to touch it is GOOD ENOUGH. If you are hesitant about doing this,SIMPLY DO NOT do it!The points of these notches should remain very sharp to the touch! With hammer laying on it's side with the cam facing up,towards you(see picture),you can lightly polish(by hand )AROUND the cam,NOT THE CAM[url] itself.Again[/url], just smooth to the touch.I use a small pine dowel cut at about 45 angle,with emery cloth glued on.With rear of the frame facing you, see the machined slot,look at both sides,see the machine marks? With a cut down popsicle stick(that 's what I use)and emery cloth attched,by hand, gently, smooth (both sides).You are not trying to remove the machining marks,just smoothing,again gently radius the two outside edges. Good time to take a look at the hammer screw,make sure the hammer pivots on the srew shoulder cleanly.At this time I install the hammer and it's screw,and slowly cycle.Then I remove the hammer,looking for any un-usual scuff marks.Last thing,Bare frame,with the bottom of the frame facing up towards you.I take a popsicle stick with emery cloth glued on and gently polish the inside of the frame,I spend a little more time in the area where the trigger and bolt are going to be[url] installed.Again[/url] were are just smoothing,just trying to lightly smooth the rough edges,and machine marks left by the cutters.No tricks,moderation and little common sense..Some of you are proably dissapointed,some bored,I hope none frustrated,most all I hope that I have at least helped someone..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[montanadan]

Post deleted by montanadan

 

[crockett]

On your prior post about the hammer peening. I would guess that about all replicas have the hammer hit the nipple when there is no cap on the nipple but I read a while back that the hammer was supposed to stop just a bit short, enough to ignite a cap but not far enough to hit the nipple.
I notice that a lot of replicas, especially the old ones like euro-arms don't have any pins between the cylinders for lowering the hammer upon or that some only have one pin.
I checked out the hand issue and as I understand it the top of the hand gets the cylinder moving. If the bolt isn't dropping down fast enough a longer hand may be needed. As the hand moves up it starts to slide off the ratchet teeth but the side of the hand keeps the cylinder moving, so... if you need more rotation at the end of the cycle then a wider hand is needed. Has anyone dealt with this and do I have it right?
On a bolt popping up too soon. It the cam had a thin plate soft soldered or epoxy glued, would that solve the problem?
All real life experiences needed!!
The subject of working on cap and ball revolvers is well worth discussing. We should print and save the posts and keep it up. There should be a definative work on the subject. Personally, I think one of the trickiest aspects is that all parts are inter-related, change one part and it can throw off everything else.

 

[montanadan]

Crockett-on original colt's(for an example),when the hammer was lowered all the way down,the hammer did not engage the nipples at all(not capped). A lot of shooters,are trying to duplicate this,the only comment I would like to make ,is spend the time on your nipples(cones).Much easier to replace a$2 or $3 nipple than replace the hammer(easier on the wallet too).I know a lot guys that spend hours getting their Nipples(cones)installed to the correct height,even go as far as to make little copper wire shims to get the height right.I used to do this,but it is so much easier,to buy good set of after market nipples(which are so uniform in height and over-all consistency)I do not hardly even mess with it. As far as loading goes.I only load five,and cap at the firing line. I shoot CAS,so sometimes you have to charge six,but only allowed to cap five.The sixth is capped on the firing line and on the clock,cartridge guys have to load the sixth round at the firing line. So it kinda works out even,especially if you practice.(which sometimes I actually do,with amazing results,Making fun of myself here).If more rotation is needed at the end of the cycle,generally you need a longer hand(generally being the key word here)hands wear down,so do the lugs at the rear of the cylinder,so does everything else. When I was younger,I use to play around with a lot of ideas(notice I did not say good ideas),and came to the conclusion that old Sam Colt did a pretty good job.Is there really tricky stuff out there for C/B revolvers,You Betcha!Try doing a search for BLACK POWDER REVOLVERS,and get ready to surf.There is some very interesting stuff flying around,a lot of these guys think it is[url] new.Again[/url] old Sam Colt was playing around,some of the stuff was actually done to his personal revolvers.Brooklyn conversion...51's was said to be his favorite,before he became ill,ole'SAM use to put on some pretty fair shootin demonstrations. I like old revolvers and old pistols in general,(the older I get,the better I like older stuff) ..I think you need to find Rowdy Yates,and talk to him.(cowboy and Indian store)Proably one the finest Cap-n-Ball smith's in the country,bring lot' $$$$..This has been fun..sorry to ramble on so much..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[montanadan]

Well I am responding to my own post.I spent three hours.on the bolt and trigger and installtion(it Sucked)I did not like it so I deleted the whole post.I will finish this..even if I get severe brain cramps(which I already have)...Respectfully Montanadan(who now thinks it was important to actually attend his classes while visiting college).

 

[mec]

got part of this from my shooting/researching partner and have actually fitted a couple of them. It worked for me

The step at the extreme left/front of the bolt governs depth of engagement. The radius on the side of the actual bolt stud need to be radiused like the one shown already in the frame. The far back "ear" of the bolt need to spraddle out enough to impinge on the frame while the near one rides the cam on the hammer.
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/colthammercam.jpg
The length of the near "ear" determines bolt drop. When it gets shortened by wear, it tends to drop early and mark the cylinder in front of the bolt guide slot. That's when it's time to fit another bolt. the Uberti replacements Ive seen are just the right length to drop the bolt pretty much in the cylinder lugs-bolt engagements. If too long, It will drop late and can be shortened for proper timing.

What I try to do is stone the parts pretty close to the ones in the gun leaving room for final fitting and a bit of trial and error.

As to the hammer hitting the cone. I've heard they are supposed to come some critical fraction of an inch short of this but go ahead and adjust my elevation by taking off some of the hammer nose. Mine hit the cap everytime. If this causes premature nipple inversion, so be it- Ill screw in new ones. I'm not sure that having the hammer nose smack into the rear of the cylinder isn't as bad or worse.
{Hell. I just looked at a couple and they don't hit the cylinder anyway.}