Can the need to swab be fixed?

[oldwolf]

Quit swabbing and never had that problem again. Even with the small bores 32 & 36. I use a mixture of 9 parts 99% isopropyl to 1 part castor oil.

So you are saying that this is your patch lube recipe? I'm looking for some ideas for new lube recipes and may give yours a try.

 

[renegadehunter]

It is definitely an opinion according to the user's needs/requirements. If you could ask someone from the fur trapper era if the need to swab is a problem, then I bet the answer would for sure be a yes from them. We all know why they would answer that way. Is it a "problem" for me? No, my life certainly isn't on the line if I have to take the time to swab to hit what I'm aiming at. But I do know that for me, when shooting at large targets that simply need to be made to clang when I shoot to be considered a successful shot, that not having to swab would be more enjoyable, i.e. less time consuming, less cost in cleaning patches (trivial), and less messy. But I also like to sit down at a bench and shoot tiny little groups. When trying to do this I swab as it slows me down, allows the barrel to cool a bit longer, and maintains consistent bore condition. I do believe though that a consistent bore condition should also be able to be maintained with a good ball/patch combo combined with a lube that is slick enough and in enough quantity to be capable of keeping ALL of the fouling soft so that the patch scrapes the bore to the same condition every time and doesn't allow layer after layer of hard fouling to form every shot.
Black Hand and CT have obviously found a method that does this. I have not...so I asked for people to share what substances/components they use to achieve this. Why? Because in MY opinion the holy grail of components would be something that doesn't require swabbing, is a lube that doesn't foul the powder or dry out so it can be left in the barrel on an all day hunt, and puts every shot into the same hole. Since my main objective is always first and foremost to hunting, there is some wiggle room on the one hole groups. If it delivers acceptable accuracy at my max shooting distance in comparison to a deer's vitals, then I have my answer. This acceptable accuracy also happens to align with shooting good sized steel targets at a fun shoot.
I also just simply enjoy trying out new things. If I actually found a mix of components that achieved the above, IMO, holy grail, then I would STILL try other things simply because I like to. I would of course always use the holy grail items when I wanted perfect for me results.

 

[brayhaven]

So you are saying that this is your patch lube recipe? I'm looking for some ideas for new lube recipes and may give yours a try.

Yes, that’s what Im Using now. I was a chemist for years and did some real elaborate recipes using various oils like jojoba, shea and coconut they worked great with extensive testing and match shooting, but had to warm Them on cold days, so came up with this simple one and now use it exclusively. It stays the same down well below feeezing and since castor oil is soluble (not suspended) in 99% alcohol, it doesn’t even need periodic shaking during shooting sessions. The ratios aren’t even that critical. Everyone I’ve let try mine has loved doing it this way. Less loading time means more shooting time. The alcohol base precludes any possibility of powder contamination, even partially, which I think adds to the consistency and accuracy. Velocity measured showed less variation between shot than swabbing. I Even weighed charges in testing to remove human error. As I tell my 4H shooters, Oscar Wilde said “consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative”. But he wasn’t talking about shooting. Where it’s the holy grail . Muleskinner

 

[bigted]

I will weigh in with my own experience,

Swabbing versus not swabbing is nothing more then fouling control. Saying this means that i consider the path to fouling control can be dealt with in a few ways.

The first way in muzzleloading is to swab between shots. This , as mentioned above, is to return the bore to a constant state every shot.

Second is to use a lube combo that softens the fouling so that the simple act of loading another load returns the bore to a constant state.

These seem to have been the two ways that i personally have found consistent accuracy in my muzzleloaders.

Swabbing can be accomplished in two ways. First is to simply swab after each shot clear to the breech. Second method is to pour the next powder charge down bore followed with a ridged thick card that seals the bore, followed by swabbing the remainder of the barrel to return it to a consistant state ... advantage of the latter is to never push ANY fouling down to the drum/patent breech area. This helps with consistent ignition.

My own preference is to control fouling using lube and ball/patch thickness to help return the barrel to its most accurate consistent condition with each shot. Trick here is to be able to load and shoot easily time after time. For hunting this is the best way for me. I like to do the frontier method as much as possible.

With your problem i suggest you smooth your barrel using some type of method that will make your barrel smooth enough so the fouling has no place to cling to due to rough spots in the bore. This sounds like your most likely cure to such horrible accuracy at such short range.

The muzzle end is another place where accuracy can go south. The crown is a place things can be hinky for sure ... however, your trouble does not sound like this is suspect.

Powder is a consideration as well. GOEX can leave very hard fouling, OLD E is very good ... maybe the best for fouling. The subs i know nothing about but old E and Swiss will make your life a much better path.

If any of this makes sense we could expound on it more.
.

 

[SDSmlf]

I am very meticulous about swabbing for ultimate accuracy when target shooting, however, the beauty of muzzleloading is that you can customize your reloading process for the task at hand. For clanging steel, teaching kids (or impatient adults) to shoot I find easy loading (think a bit thinner than normal) and almost sloppy wet patch can work surprisingly well provided you seal the bore and protect your powder charge. What I do is pour the powder down without wiping. I follow that with an 1/8” wool felt wad one size larger than the bore (5/8” for a 54, 3/8” for a 32 for example) pushed with the ramrod to the powder charge. I know, an extra step, but it’s quick and requires no finesse. Then I load the RB with a relatively thin patch soaked in either Hoppes Black Powder Solvent or windshield wiper solution. Whatever you use should almost squirt from the patch when you push it into the barrel, no short starter required. The wad seals the barrel (thin patch alone will not) and protects the powder from the soaked patch. The soaked patch cleans the fouling as you load the round ball pushing everything down the barrel on top of the felt wad. Can shoot all day. My 32 is in the half inch range at 25 yards when I can see the sights.....

You can experiment with thicker patch material and how wet the patch is, but that is up to you. Only range time will tell you what works.

 

[bigted]

LOL ...are there times when you can not quite see them sights? Might wanna back off the lightenin a bit! Blindness is just around the bend.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

You’ll hear many here claim they can literally shoot all days, dozens of shots, and NEVER wipe their bores. And of course this being the internet, every shot is in the x-ring, too!!

 

[Carbon 6]

You’ll hear many here claim they can literally shoot all days, dozens of shots, and NEVER wipe their bores. And of course this being the internet, every shot is in the x-ring, too!!

Are you using hyperbole to exclaim hyperbole ?

One thing I have noticed is that often times where the accuracy of an X ring shooter "bottoms out" , That's about where Joe Average "tops out".

 

[Maven]

I will weigh in with my own experience,

Swabbing versus not swabbing is nothing more then fouling control. Saying this means that i consider the path to fouling control can be dealt with in a few ways.

The first way in muzzleloading is to swab between shots. This , as mentioned above, is to return the bore to a constant state every shot.

Second is to use a lube combo that softens the fouling so that the simple act of loading another load returns the bore to a constant state.

These seem to have been the two ways that i personally have found consistent accuracy in my muzzleloaders.

Swabbing can be accomplished in two ways. First is to simply swab after each shot clear to the breech. Second method is to pour the next powder charge down bore followed with a ridged thick card that seals the bore, followed by swabbing the remainder of the barrel to return it to a consistant state ... advantage of the latter is to never push ANY fouling down to the drum/patent breech area. This helps with consistent ignition.

My own preference is to control fouling using lube and ball/patch thickness to help return the barrel to its most accurate consistent condition with each shot. Trick here is to be able to load and shoot easily time after time. For hunting this is the best way for me. I like to do the frontier method as much as possible.

With your problem i suggest you smooth your barrel using some type of method that will make your barrel smooth enough so the fouling has no place to cling to due to rough spots in the bore. This sounds like your most likely cure to such horrible accuracy at such short range.

The muzzle end is another place where accuracy can go south. The crown is a place things can be hinky for sure ... however, your trouble does not sound like this is suspect.

Powder is a consideration as well. GOEX can leave very hard fouling, OLD E is very good ... maybe the best for fouling. The subs i know nothing about but old E and Swiss will make your life a much better path.

If any of this makes sense we could expound on it more.
.[/QUOTE]

Excellent summary, bigted!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

What lubes and patch thicknesses DO you use to control the foulings??

 

[bigted]

I use a lube that i make. It began as a lube for the newer metalic Sharps m 74 needs, half bee wax half whale oil ... now naturally i can not get whale oil so like a vast number of Sharps shooters and the likes, i substitute plain ol vasoline for the whale oil. Now this is a little stiff so i put 1/4 volume added olive oil to this and presto, great muzzleloader patch lube.

I carry a tin of it that i smear the patch on till the patch is caked with the stuff through and through and this gives me a great swabbing as i load the next patched ball.

When i have need for the most accurate shooting, i load the next powder charge, then load a 1/8th vegi wad on the powder charge, followed by a nice wet swabing up n down twice followed by a clean dry patch,( which i then use the next time for my wet patch), up n down twice before loading my lubed patched ball.

Hunting accuracy is maintained with the simply heavily lubed prb of the next load. Bear in mind that if i do my part, there is need of MAYBE a next shot so my tests include 5 shots and my accuracy tests involve an expected 3 inch 50 yard group. SOMETIMES i can do this even with the swabbing tecknique but i also know that my accuracy problems lay pristinely at my feet.

Hardly ever shoot off hand anymore. Always have a rest ... even if simply setting down and resting across my knee's.

 

[BrownBear]

There's also the effect of "fouling" a clean bore with additional lube when the weather is wet. It's my standard practice to run a lubed patch down the bore after loading in a clean bore, just for extra protection.

Perhaps that has something to do with my lack of issues from wandering first shots. Guys who feel they need the fouling shot but range rules don't allow it might try that mod. At least with grease lubes it might make some difference. Speculation, but based on my lack of wandering balls.

 

[azmntman]

Heres my take....When I site in a rifle/pistol I am going for cloverleaf or as close as I can get. I usually wont keep a rifle that wont shoot 4" groups min at 90 yds. When siting in I now use the Dutch system and I foul first shot and swab in between. IT WORKS.

Now said gun is sited in and ready to go. Alot of time I just go make smoke, these times min of can (or deer) is great, I usually choose to use Hoppes solvent patch lube and THIS REMOVES ANY NEED TO SWAB BETWEEN SHOTS. (just ask Hanshi). Sure my groups open up from like 2" to 3 but I'm plinking not sighting in or going for best target. Others have other methods like a brush after the powder followed by the PRB. Alot more time but sure it works just great.

Hunting I take my dutch load and foul, load and hunt. Some use mink oil, some still spit.

W all have our "ways" and as none are as good as mineI dont care what others use But I just might try your way! Soot, clean and be happy. You can shoot n be happy 45, 298 "ways" so just do it!

 

[Carbon 6]

Sure my groups open up from like 2" to 3 but I'm plinking not sighting in or going for best target.

Whether I'm plinking, shooting X's, or decapitating squirrels, my expectations never change. I always expect to hit where I'm aiming.

 

[azmntman]

Exactly! I can still hit my cans just fine. On target I will be in the 8-9 ring VS the 10. (or really, right next to the lil post it instead of in the paper LOL). I am alot like you when getting one dialed in I need to hit that post it consistently before I am done. BUT when I just go out for a stroll and shoot some I am shooting at cans n knots of wood n such and if they roll I smile. I like to smile. I also like to shoot 20 shots instead of 12-15 and Hoppes and no swabbing gets me there!

 

[Carbon 6]

I like to smile.

I carry a lot of smiles in my shooting bag.

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry but I'm borderline OCD (it really should be CDO so that it's in order!...lol) and also just plain like to try to build a better mousetrap all the time, probably why I like this black powder thing so much, lots of variables to mess around with.
Background:
TC Renegade .54 cal
.530 ball, .015 store bought cotton patch, damp with Hoppes BP solvent (can't wring any out of it), 75 grains of 2f Scheutzen.
Just sitting here wishing I was out shooting and started to wonder about having to swab.
When using the above I can load and shoot many times without it getting too hard to load, but when at club shoots I noticed that I would hit the first 3 or so targets and then I was lucky to hit another one. Steel targets without any way to really see where the shots were going. Stupid me, but when developing the load I was swabbing every shot just for the ease of loading and getting nice groups. Then I would go to a club shoot and try to shoot continuously without swabbing. I don't mind swabbing, but the folks I shoot with don't need to and would be waiting on me if I took the extra time so I just didn't. I finally went to the range and tried to shoot groups at 25 yards without swabbing and found that the first two shots were in the bull, then the third shot was about 6" left of that, the fourth shot barely nicked the left edge of the box the target was stapled to, and the next two shots I took didn't hit the whole target/box (so roughly 14" left of the bull to miss the whole thing). All shots from sandbags. I then ran a barely damp swab down the barrel, flipped it over and did it again, and then took another shot. It was right back in the bull. Swabbed again just once down and back to see if that was enough for fouling consistency and the next shot was also in the bull. The patches I use are labeled as .015", when squeezed very firmly in calipers they consistently average .012". So finally my question:
Has anyone ever experienced this and was able to go to a little tighter patch and get away with not swabbing? I read about folks not needing to swab all the time and was just curious. My current patches load what I'd call medium on a fouled bore, pretty firm pressure is required to seat them. I've recently bought some CVA pillow ticking patches that say they are .015" that actually measure about .018" uncompressed and show right at the stated thickness when squeezed in the calipers, but I haven't had the time to try them yet. I'm wondering if slightly tighter will result in a more consistent bore from shot to shot.
I really don't mind having to swab, just curious if anyone has ever "fixed" the need to swab and been able to maintain decent groups. Our club shots at steel targets really only require minute-of-deer accuracy to make most of them clang. The very first shot that is a tie-breaker paper target is the only one that really needs to be a super accurate shot, which I have no issue with since it is the first shot of the day (when I do my part anyway lol).

Last year I made a separate loading rod and to it attached a very stiff nylon brush. I use this instead of swabbing during a 10 shot match. At the end of each relay I swab out the bore, clear with a cap and start again.
The sequence after the first shot and fouled barrel is to drop the fresh charge, run the brush down to the fresh powder charge, give it a quarter turn and pull back out. This pushes all the fouling down bore on top the fresh powder. Now the new patched ball is seated as usual.
This is working pretty well for me as it keeps the fouling in check during a ten shot relay, keeps wet fouling out of the powder chamber from swabbing after each shot and is quick to implement. Also you don't have to cap clear after each swab shot.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Swabbing the bore will obviously vary depending on desired accuracy expectations, but another factor may be the caliber, twist, and depth of rifling in the firearm. I find my rifles with deeper grooves are harder to load if I don't swab after only a couple of shots when I'm just plinking. If I want accuracy, then for the most part swabbing is needed.

 

[brayhaven]

I will weigh in with my own experience,

Swabbing versus not swabbing is nothing more then fouling control. Saying this means that i consider the path to fouling control can be dealt with in a few ways.

The first way in muzzleloading is to swab between shots. This , as mentioned above, is to return the bore to a constant state every shot.

Second is to use a lube combo that softens the fouling so that the simple act of loading another load returns the bore to a constant state.

These seem to have been the two ways that i personally have found consistent accuracy in my muzzleloaders.

Swabbing can be accomplished in two ways. First is to simply swab after each shot clear to the breech. Second method is to pour the next powder charge down bore followed with a ridged thick card that seals the bore, followed by swabbing the remainder of the barrel to return it to a consistant state ... advantage of the latter is to never push ANY fouling down to the drum/patent breech area. This helps with consistent ignition.

My own preference is to control fouling using lube and ball/patch thickness to help return the barrel to its most accurate consistent condition with each shot. Trick here is to be able to load and shoot easily time after time. For hunting this is the best way for me. I like to do the frontier method as much as possible.

With your problem i suggest you smooth your barrel using some type of method that will make your barrel smooth enough so the fouling has no place to cling to due to rough spots in the bore. This sounds like your most likely cure to such horrible accuracy at such short range.

The muzzle end is another place where accuracy can go south. The crown is a place things can be hinky for sure ... however, your trouble does not sound like this is suspect.

Powder is a consideration as well. GOEX can leave very hard fouling, OLD E is very good ... maybe the best for fouling. The subs i know nothing about but old E and Swiss will make your life a much better path.

If any of this makes sense we could expound on it more.
.

Bigted, Good advice about the smoothing. I lead lap all my barrels by wrapping the tip of a long 22 cal cleaning brush to center it in the bore. Then with the threads above the muzzle, pour it with lead to just under the rim. That’s your lap. Be sure to mark the top land so you can put it back exactly the same position (if it comes out) as it’s a casting of the bore. I use fine valve grinding compound for just a few strokes, then use 600 grit silicon carbide powder in oil for 20-25 slathered on the lap.

As to people wondering how many shots you can get without swabbing, I have no idea. I’ve shot 140 in a day in my 36 mule ear (long hammock barrel) and the last shot went down as easily as the second one. But I’ll have to admit, they did not all go in the X-ring . Muleskinner

 

[WKD]

A well fitted (tight) patch, ball combination and a good clean burning powder in the right amount will allow you to shoot many rounds without having to swab.
On the other hand a loose patch/ ball with 100 grains ffg instead of 50 grains fffg (as an example) you will have fouled your bore to the point that a reload without swabbing will be difficult and at that point you would probably be shoving crud into your touchhole or drum.