Building derringers with a mill/drill/lathe?

[cdg]

OK, so I've been lurking around numerous machining forums and trying to glean information from all kinds of odd sources.

Basically it comes down to that I want to spend my tax refund check (which hasn't arrived yet), and economic stimulus package thing on a 3 in 1 mill/drill/lathe unit. I was looking at a few from Harbor Freight and I think I can afford the unit I have in mind. If I sell my project 1980 Ford Pinto I can probably get about $200 in tooling too.

I have less interest in rifles and much more interest in pistols and derringers. The machine I have in mind should be pretty well suited to produce derringers and pocket pistols. I'd like my first project (after picking up some basic operations training) to be a boxlock pistol based on the .41 brass smoothebore derringer from Dixie.

That particular derringer comes as a pretty crude kit, so you'd be hard pressed to make a firearm that was of inferior quality/ :haha:

OK, so what I'm asking is what kind of tooling should I buy to make this project feasible? About the only thing I don't plan on producing for such a project would be the springs involved. Everything else should pretty much be turned or milled by me.

My thoughts thus far are a good set of drill bits, a quality set of end mills, collets, and maybe some ballnose cutters for the mill.

Then maybe a good center drill set, tail stock drill chuck, and carbide or HSS cutter set.

Does anybody here do their own machine shop work? Any other words of wisdom for a guy just getting started into machine shop operations?

I'm looking at a few different machines, mostly from Harbor Freight. With almost all of the hobby grade machine tooling built in China these days I just don't see much way around it aside buying used, which I don't really want to do. I'm thinking about their mini 3 in 1 machine since it would fit in my college dorm and would prove easy to transport, but I'm going to go to the HF tools down in Phoenix sometime to see if it would really suit my needs.

I am interested in making firearms, but to start with I want to set my sights low and work my way up. I want to start with simple smoothebore ideas and go from there. Producing a rimfire derringer might not be out of the question, but to start with I plan on only sticking to simple, low-pressure firearms so I can learn as much as possible.

So my questions are in list form:

1) Does anybody here machine their own parts?

2) Does anybody care to weigh in on a "first firearm" project after learning some basic turning and milling operations?

3) Can anybody direct me as to what tooling I should look for, assuming that I'm buying a 3 in 1?

4) Anybody want to recommend a particular machine?

5) Any speculations on being able to make accurate rifling on a home lathe system are nice. I'm not particularly expecting it to be even possible, but I thought I'd ask anyway...

Thanks! :grin:

 

[44-henry]

Anything is possible. As a college professor who teaches manufacturing processes I can tell you that making firearm parts in your dorm would likely be against your schools policies, steam engines would be another issue.

I'm currently doing research on the issues of training students on bench top machines and have had some experiences with the asian 7x12 and 9x20 lathes. Though the concept of a 3 and 1 machine sound attractive, the time spent changing setups will soon become a hassle, maybe not one you would have a problme with, but I would. I have seen the two smaller 3 and 1's that harbor freight sells, only one would be portable enough that you would want to move it around a lot and I don't think that would satisfy the rest of your requirements.

My advice if you are looking for a small machine would be one of the 7x10 and 7x12 lathes. These are decent machines especially with a bit of tuning and they will handle your lathe requirements. Add the small mini mill and you should have the basis to do the stuff like steam engines and eventually the more complex parts that you eventually want to do. Cummins has the best price I know of on the mini lathe and sells it for $399 with common accessories, Harbor Freight is more expensive, however if you live close you save on the shipping. Both lathes come from the same factory and are little different except for paint (Harbor freight does sell a similar machine that is a 7x10). You can even do some light milling in the lathe if you are short on cash.

As far as accessories go take a look at www.littlemachineshop.com and that should give you an idea of what you need. I would suggest starting with a lathe. You will probably want standard accessories such as:

3 jaw chuck
1/2" drill chuck
4 jaw chuck
Steady rest
Follower rest
Quick change tool holder system
Lathe bits (either high speed steel or carbide)
Live and dead centers
6" caliper (dial or digital)
Complete set of drill bits wire, letter, fractional
Set of center drills
Layout dye
Allen wrench set

This is a pretty basic set, but will get you started. Add a milling attachment if you want to do some extra work and also a set of 3/8" mills and a collet set for the mini lathe.

 

[Only Round]

First of all, just let me say that I really don't think having a machine shop in your dorm room is going to work too well. You're going to have metal chips, oil/coolant all over everything (hope there's no carpet in there!). Just how far do you need to move that machine to get it into your room? Even at just 350lbs+, I wouldn't really call that portable. I have a smithy 3-in-one that I moved into my basement. I'm a pretty big guy, and so is my buddy that helped me, but it was still a Major Pain. You'll need a good heavy-duty cart at least to move it from your truck to the dorm room. Forget about thinking that you'll just be able to carry it to it's destination.
OK, after all that I'd have to agree that, while a 3-in-1 is less expensive and takes up less space set-up time to switch from lathe to mill or vice-versa is a major pain. But then again, at your age I'm sure you have more time than money! I also would agree that it's probably better to just get yourself a lathe. I would guess that 90% of the machining I do is lathe work. In fact, I really just can't think of any part for a muzzleloading gun you could make with a mill that you couldn't make almost easier and faster with a hacksaw and files.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to go with!

 

[54mountain]

It can be fun, I have access to a full shop at work and i think a separate lathe and mill would be a better choice JMO also when making barrels and such be sure you know what kind and grade of metal your working with (safty first) as pressures can be quite great that said hears a pic of my first scatch build I built everything but the lock

good luck and have fun :thumbsup:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

The 3 in 1 machines may sound good, but IMO, majority of the cheaper ones are not really a good tool and not the best of both worlds.

With that said, I once had Emco Maier V10-P (Austrian made) and it worked out well, but it was definitely not a cheapo. Bought it new back in the 80s, and by the time I got it tooled up to suit, had well over ten grand in it.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/emco/page10.html

I would suggest you buy the mini lathe and mini drill-mill separately. I have the Cummins mini lathe (400 bucks with free shipping) and a Micro-Mark Microlux mill-drill at $484.00 + 68 bucks shipping. I went with the Micro-Mark because it has true inch feed screws and metal spindle shaft gears, also they ship in two boxes so UPS can deliver.

These machines need some tweaking and modifications, but they can be made to perform some excellent work within their limitations. I am still rather amazed at how much one gets for the money.

Mini mill comparisons:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

Mini lathe comparisons:
http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minilathe_compare.php

Mini lathe user's guide:
https://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/MiniLatheUsersGuide.pdf

Mini mill user's guide:
https://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/MiniMillUsersGuide.pdf

 

[44-henry]

Just another thought, you might want to look at Sherline products. The first lathe I had was a 17" bed sherline that you could pick up and place on the kitchen table and store in the closet when you were done with it. Believe it or not, I did turn some pistol barrels on it and it did work. I long since sold that lathe and regretted it ever since. Last year I purchased a short bed Sherline to replace it. I still find that even though I have a floor lathe that weighs over 1000 pounds, I still use the Sherline for the small stuff I do. If I was making a small box lock pistol I don't believe that there is anything that couldn't be done with a combination of the Sherline lathe and lots of hand tools.

 

[sundog]

Man I wish I had somthing positive to say but I just dont think it will work out for you in a dorm.
No matter what you do chips are going to be a horrible problem, tit is unavoidable, ya cut metal and ya make chips, cut steel or brass and ya have sharp chips, cast iron and ya have a kind a black dust that wount go away.
Then for some things ya have ta use coolant, water soluable oil and water mix. Ya can try a air stream to cool but it isnt as good and wount work a lot of times.
How do I know, I have 2 lathes and a mill and I was a class A machinest back in Vermont years ago.

 

[44-henry]

The chips do make a mess, but if you are dealing with a machine such as the sherline it is possible to work in small areas and clean up afterwords, I have done some machining in my kitchen back in the day. If you are forced to work on carpet you can buy yourself a small mat to go under your table or bench that will be easy to sweep up afterwards. You can improvise a pretty decent chip tray from a cake pan with a little creativity and this, along with some sort of back splash will contain much of the mess. Despite all of this chips do start flying when you are cutting. I generally don't use coolant too much of the time with hobby stuff and don't find it totally necessary. Coolant does improve surface finish to a degree with some materials, it also produces a gummy mess that is difficult to clean up. Basically the coolant will improve tool life and this is very important in an industrial setting when efficiency is a major concern. In our cases whether a tool lasts 180 minutes or 90 minutes of cutting time is not a major concern, simply re-sharpen or buy another tool bit, they aren't that expensive. Also, even if your cutter only lasts 45 minutes that is still an awful lot of machining time when you consider that the vast majority of your project will generally be in setup time between cuts.

 

[Bubba45]

For around $600 you can have a 7x10 lathe and a micro mill from Harbor Frieght delivered and they take up as much room as a 19" TV.

 

[Tinker2]

I would stay away from the “three in one” if you can.
7x12 or 7X14 lathes would be what I might get now if
I was going to do it over, maybe Sherline.

I have small equipment that can go with me on trips
or outdoors on a picnic table.

I put a cheap plastic drop cloth down under the lathe
or mill, makes cleanup easy.

Here is some “easy to transport” equipment. http://www.sherline.com/shops.htm
I have seen, first hand, Jerry Kieffer's traveling work shop.
It is truely a travling work shop.

Here are some guns made by Roger L. Ronnie on mostly
Sherline euipment. http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Ronnie2.htm
I have seen them up close, the pictures do not do them justice.

I am pretty much going along with what Alexander L. Johnson said.
If you use 12L14 steel you will find it machines very well.


Good luck
Tinker2

 

[flashpanner]

I have been spoiled with commercial/industrial tools rather than light weight hobby tooling. My father-in-law has a 3-in-one setup, allegedly a good make. Hard to do, time consuming gear changes for different feed rates, lack of rigidity made it disappointing. I did not mean to rain on your parade. I'd suggest taking a machine tool class/open lab and use the school's shop. Get in good with the professor and explain that you are making a wall hanger. To avoid the "dangerous weapon" issue just don't take the whole project on campus. They will be viewed as just a "part"

 

[cdg]

Wow - more responses here already than I anticipated. Thanks for your responses everybody!

As for the dorm issue, I'm not too worried about that. Let me worry about it. :grin: I've done some pretty heavy repair projects, not the least of which was an engine overhaul in my dorm. I'm lucky to be on the first floor right near an exit. Not only does it make it easy to bring in large pieces of equipment, but it means I can get out all the faster when I set my bed on fire. :haha:

I was first thinking about the micro 3 in 1 from harbor freight. It is only barely big enough to create derringer sized firearms, and weighs under 50 lbs. Some people love the little machines, others say they're junk. Not good for doing heavy cutting in steel, but most say they work great with aluminum and even brass and some mild steel.

Then I was thinking about one of the bigger 300lb machines from Harbor Freight. Supposedly they're very well made and perform fairly well overall.

Then I was also considering a Taig lathe with a milling attachment - could be a viable alternative to a 3 in 1. Taig has a great reputation for quality lathes and tooling too

Then I was considering saving for higher dollar equipment. (those of you suggesting Sherline and Emco and the likes).

Who knows what I'll decide there. My main question was about what tooling I should have specifically. Any more thoughts on this?

I thought about a mill and a drill seperately, but the space is a concern. If I do go for the seperate machines, I feel as though the lathe should come first though... A 7x10 from Harbor Freight on sale and with a cupon can be as little as $250, leaving lots of leftovers for extras. The milling features of the milling attachment are supposedly pretty limited though...

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I belong to both of these groups, lots of guys doing gun work, and kinda like MLF, all kinds of info, links, and answers for any questions.

Mini lathe user's group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x12minilathe/

Mini mill user's group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mini-mill/

 

[paulvallandigham]

Be very careful about using steel as soft as 12L14, particular for a barrel or breechplug. This an easy steel to machine because it is so soft. But most barrel makers are using 4140 steel, which is much harder and tougher for safety sakes. They have to protect themselves from people who overload their guns and will try to blow it up just to see if they can do it. 4140 is more more difficult to cut, and work, and requires the best equipment to do that job.

I think 12L14 could be used for other parts of a gun, but I would not want to see anyone recommending it for barrels or breechplugs. Not unless you are building wall-hangers, that have cut barrels to prevent someone from trying to shoot them.

 

[Bubba45]

Montana Rifle Barrel/Orion Rifle Barrel used 12L14 for their barrels and Green Mt uses 1157 for ML barrels. 4140 is used for HighPower .

 

[Elnathan]

I don't know about modern steels, but historically very soft, pure iron was considered ideal for rifle barrels. Supposedly, some of the barrels made up in the Appalachian Mountains was so soft it could be shaved with a drawknife.

 

[Tinker2]

paulvallandigham is right for any modern firearm manufacturer.
I do use 4140 on my larger equipment, for modern firearms.

12L14
I use it because it is made to machine easier, less wear and
tear on my smaller equipment and it works great for what
I use it for.

I like it better then the brass barrels on muzzle loaders.

12L14 Mechanical properties

Tensile strength PSI 87,500
Yield point PSI 75,000
Brinell hardness 163/179 http://www.geocities.com/haimanaua/htdocs/steels/12L14.html

You also may want to look into barrel liners for your rimfire
applications.

Tinker2

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Be very careful about using steel as soft as 12L14, particular for a barrel or breechplug. This an easy steel to machine because it is so soft. But most barrel makers are using 4140 steel, which is much harder and tougher for safety sakes. They have to protect themselves from people who overload their guns and will try to blow it up just to see if they can do it. 4140 is more more difficult to cut, and work, and requires the best equipment to do that job.

I think 12L14 could be used for other parts of a gun, but I would not want to see anyone recommending it for barrels or breechplugs. Not unless you are building wall-hangers, that have cut barrels to prevent someone from trying to shoot them.

Who uses 4140 for ML barrels? All ML barrel makers I know of use 12L14 leaded steel.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Do you know Phil Quaglino?( Havannah, Florida)

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Do you know Phil Quaglino?( Havannah, Florida)

No I don't know him, is he an exception and does use 4140 steel?.

Do you know Getz, Rice, GM, etc, etc, etc, etc, who do exclusively use 12L14 or other leaded steels for ML barrels?