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Brown Bess or Charleville which is the better musket?

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Hi,
The French muskets were superior designs compared to the Brown Bess. They were lighter, stronger where it was important, and easier to maintain in the field largely because of the barrel bands. They were made completely at government arsenals rather than by a collection of cottage craftsmen organized by an ordnance department as were the British muskets. Therefore, the interchangeability of parts was much higher. British light infantry during the F&I war always preferred captured French model 1728 muskets to their own heavier Brown Besses or carbines. American soldiers during our Rev War much preferred the French muskets offered them. However, the early pattern Besses with a fair amount of drop in the butt stock are the best shooters for most of us. French muskets and later Besses have very straight stocks that are difficult for most to shoulder and aim properly. Finally, Besses are in many respects more elegant than their french counterparts although the French model 1728 musket is pretty nice.

dave

The lock geometry, at least on the replicas, looks terrible to me on the Charleville's. Not the same as the originals I have seen.
Is this really much of a problem for ignition?
Are any of the Pedersoli Charleville-type locks better than others.
 
The first thing you notice about an original bess is that its forestock is in poor shape, from pinning and un-pinning. The rod pipes are cracked, and some snap out of the stock leaving cracks and gashes. The locks seem to maintain rather well, however I've seen some with forged and replaced cocks and repair around the mortise. I've also seen several with wrist repairs, likely due to the wrist plate area being weaker.
Nick

The forestock gouging and cracks around the pins on the Bess were/are always from trying to drive the pins out and almost always in the period and modern times done by Soldiers who weren't allowed to do it (to make a louder noise when slapping the stocks during drill to please the Officers) and by those who didn't/don't know how to do it well, so there is no damage there after removing the pins. The problem came/comes from them originally just driving in the pin stock, cutting the pin stock off on both sides of the forestock and then filing the ends to match the curved sides of the forestock. Thus the ends of the pin are rounded and very difficult to "start" them moving from either side. Had the pins been made with flat ends that were a bit below the rounded shape of the forestock, such damage would have been much, much less.

With the tools available in the period, real Artificers/Armorers probably started the pins moving by using a sharp/narrow pointed center punch and then after the pin moved under the surface of the forestock, drove them the rest of the way out with a drive pin punch. What I have noticed on original Brown Besses was after the pins were removed by qualified personnel, was the pin ends were filed perpendicular to the length and thus made them capable of being removed and driven back in without damage to the forestocks.

I make these points both from a career as a Modern Military Armorer and NM Armorer and as one who does Artificer/Armorer work as close as possible to the ways they did it in the period. I can assure you, I have seen PLENTY of damage done to modern arms that are MUCH easier to disassemble than period arms, when done by people who are not qualified to do it.

While we have some information on what maintenance was allowed to be done by British Soldiers and what wasn't (Soldiers were NEVER authorized to remove the barrels on their Bess's), there is almost nothing in English text available (that I know of) on what French Soldiers or their Artificers/Armorers were allowed/authorized to do. Further, Military Artificers/Armorers were almost/or never fully trained gunsmiths during the period, so the quality of their repairs were often not as nicely done as a gunsmith would have done.

I don't know if common French Soldiers were authorized to remove the barrels from the stocks on their muskets, but I HIGHLY doubt it. The forestocks are far too easily damaged on both British and French Muskets, once the barrels are removed. I do know that common American Soldiers were forbidden from removing the barrels on their French design Springfield/Harpers Ferry Muskets from the War of 1812 onwards and only American Artificers/Armorers allowed to do it. However, I do agree that when period qualified Artificers/Armorers had to remove the barrels - there was less damage to the forestocks when it was done with the French style muskets.

There is no doubt that brass rammer pipes were more easily damaged than Iron Barrel Bands, though most of the damage on brass rammer pipes I have seen on originals can be attributed to too much filing and making the pipes too thin during the period. Still, it was something too possible during the era, even though not common when the pipes were made correctly.

I do agree the French Musket Designs were more "Soldier Proof," though Soldiers and Marines then and now can/do come up with the most amazing ways to damage their service arms, even when not the results of battle damage.

Gus
 
The lock geometry, at least on the replicas, looks terrible to me on the Charleville's. Not the same as the originals I have seen.
Is this really much of a problem for ignition?
Are any of the Pedersoli Charleville-type locks better than others.

The Pedersoli 1763 is based on the second production run 1766; which was reduced in size; it’s a good repro.

The 1777 lock is a much lighter rounded version with the slanted brass pan; this is a less reliable lock as it was always intended to be a lesser costly design.

Miruko made the best charleville repro 1766 lock.

The original first production 1763 lock is a whooping 7 inches; and the cock has a round hole in the neck not a heart shape.
 
A Roman army laid siege to a City in Asia Minor. The rulers laughed and said they had twenty years worth of food. The Roman replied ‘so... we will accept your surrender in twenty one years’. The Brits had that same sort of drive. “We will never surrender!” A great Brit said that... well half Brit his mama was American
Lots of better armed armies lost the battle. Midway, Charlotsville, Trafalgar, Hastings....The Bess did its job
 
I love them both. I'm a Son's of the American Revolution member, George Rogers Clark Chapter, Springfield, OH. I just today ordered a Pedersoli 1766 Charleville Musket. It should be here Wednesday or Thursday. The Bess I like because of the brass on it. The Charleville is more not embellished with brass or much engraving. I went with the Charleville, mostly because I already had a 1861 Springfield, that firearm is based quite a bit on the Charleville. Stocks are very similar with the three band barrels, which I like better than the pinned barrel on the Bess. Here's some pictures of a Pedersoli Bess, and a Charleville. Below that is my 1861 Springfield. Really, it comes down to what do you like.
Screenshot_2018-11-18%20guns-of-assasins-creed-iii-flintlock-brown-bess-charleville-shooting66%20jpg%20JPEG%20Image%201220%20%20615%20pi..._zpsdjfmwhjf.jpg

Screenshot_2018-11-18%20guns-of-assasins-creed-iii-flintlock-brown-bess-charleville-onmat66%20jpg%20JPEG%20Image%201220%20%20427%20pixel..._zps0j5hdwj0.jpg

IMG_0645%20-%20Version%202_zps6pqexk0o.jpg
IMG_0637%20-%20Version%202_zpshuuohtlv.jpg
 
I love them both. I'm a Son's of the American Revolution member, George Rogers Clark Chapter, Springfield, OH. I just today ordered a Pedersoli 1766 Charleville Musket. It should be here Wednesday or Thursday. The Bess I like because of the brass on it. The Charleville is more not embellished with brass or much engraving. I went with the Charleville, mostly because I already had a 1861 Springfield, that firearm is based quite a bit on the Charleville. Stocks are very similar with the three band barrels, which I like better than the pinned barrel on the Bess. Here's some pictures of a Pedersoli Bess, and a Charleville. Below that is my 1861 Springfield. Really, it comes down to what do you like.
Screenshot_2018-11-18%20guns-of-assasins-creed-iii-flintlock-brown-bess-charleville-shooting66%20jpg%20JPEG%20Image%201220%20%20615%20pi..._zpsdjfmwhjf.jpg

Screenshot_2018-11-18%20guns-of-assasins-creed-iii-flintlock-brown-bess-charleville-onmat66%20jpg%20JPEG%20Image%201220%20%20427%20pixel..._zps0j5hdwj0.jpg

IMG_0645%20-%20Version%202_zps6pqexk0o.jpg
IMG_0637%20-%20Version%202_zpshuuohtlv.jpg

The Pedersoli Charleville is very nice repro; I'm considering one and then having the butt stock reshaped to reduce the comb. Its a good design of a 1763 Charleville (not a 1766).

The Pedersoli Brown Bess..... Personally I'm a fan of a long land by Track of the Wolf and The Rifle Shoppe. The kits are tough but well worth the time it takes, the ends justifies the means and you can easily modify them to meet historical needs. Pedersoli's are tough to rework, the stocks are more slender and the barrels are actually smaller than the originals.
 
Hi Nicholas,
You can rework a Pedersoli and make it much better
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/

but you cannot get the barrel, stock , and lock to be quite right. The barrel dimension across the breech (1.26", in front of the molding and full round cross section) is quite a bit smaller than the originals I've restored and handled. The stock is too small in the butt because the plate is short. However, the stock has plenty of extra wood every where else and is not too slim by a long shot when scaled to the barrel dimensions. The Miroku Bess barrel is much better in dimensions. The breech is 1.30" at the breech and 0.87" at the muzzle, which is very close to the lower end of the range of original barrels. However, the hardware and stock need to be replaced. The lock, however, is very good if you get rid of the stamped in markings and re-engrave authentic looking marks. The internals, when polished and fitted correctly, are superior to Pedersoli's. Of course, the bottom line is that many reenactors and living history participants cannot afford an historically correct Bess so they buy Pedersolis, Mirokus, and unfortunately, India-made guns. Of those, reworking, the Pedersoli gives the best results unless you intend to do a complete restock.

dave
 
The Pedersoli Charleville is very nice repro; I'm considering one and then having the butt stock reshaped to reduce the comb. Its a good design of a 1763 Charleville (not a 1766).

The Pedersoli Brown Bess..... Personally I'm a fan of a long land by Track of the Wolf and The Rifle Shoppe. The kits are tough but well worth the time it takes, the ends justifies the means and you can easily modify them to meet historical needs. Pedersoli's are tough to rework, the stocks are more slender and the barrels are actually smaller than the originals.

Hi Nicholas,
You can rework a Pedersoli and make it much better
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/

but you cannot get the barrel, stock , and lock to be quite right. The barrel dimension across the breech (1.26", in front of the molding and full round cross section) is quite a bit smaller than the originals I've restored and handled. The stock is too small in the butt because the plate is short. However, the stock has plenty of extra wood every where else and is not too slim by a long shot when scaled to the barrel dimensions. The Miroku Bess barrel is much better in dimensions. The breech is 1.30" at the breech and 0.87" at the muzzle, which is very close to the lower end of the range of original barrels. However, the hardware and stock need to be replaced. The lock, however, is very good if you get rid of the stamped in markings and re-engrave authentic looking marks. The internals, when polished and fitted correctly, are superior to Pedersoli's. Of course, the bottom line is that many reenactors and living history participants cannot afford an historically correct Bess so they buy Pedersolis, Mirokus, and unfortunately, India-made guns. Of those, reworking, the Pedersoli gives the best results unless you intend to do a complete restock.

dave

Dave have you every purchased a Brown Bess stock from nurmich arms? They have one that’s a replacement ....
 
Hi Nicholas,
No, I have not. Is it a good choice?

dave

Not sure .... I’m asking around; it's available in walnut their asking 110$ not a bad price;thinking about restocking an older miruko bess I picked up .... the miruko has an overworked forearm (too much drilling and epoxy).
 
Is this the one you mean?
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1480800

I can't help but think for that cheap of a price, "What's wrong with it?" Have you contacted them to see which Bess that is supposed to fit?

Back in the very early 80's, I not only cracked/broke the wrist on my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine, but I actually shattered it. I could not get a replacement stock then, because I did not know Richard Beauchamp of Flintlocks, Etc. back then. A replacement stock from Dunlap cost too much compared to what the gun was worth. Wound up glassing two threaded brass rods that went around the thumb piece screw and well forward and behind the shattered area. I wrapped the shattered pieces together with rubber tubing to hold them in place while the epoxy bedding set up. I was very surprised that after I cleaned it up and stained/refinished the stock, even I could barely detect the repaired area's and of course I knew where they were.

Gus
 
Is this the one you mean?
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1480800

I can't help but think for that cheap of a price, "What's wrong with it?" Have you contacted them to see which Bess that is supposed to fit?

Back in the very early 80's, I not only cracked/broke the wrist on my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine, but I actually shattered it. I could not get a replacement stock then, because I did not know Richard Beauchamp of Flintlocks, Etc. back then. A replacement stock from Dunlap cost too much compared to what the gun was worth. Wound up glassing two threaded brass rods that went around the thumb piece screw and well forward and behind the shattered area. I wrapped the shattered pieces together with rubber tubing to hold them in place while the epoxy bedding set up. I was very surprised that after I cleaned it up and stained/refinished the stock, even I could barely detect the repaired area's and of course I knew where they were.

Gus

Yea that’s it! I called they said it was part of some project that didn’t fall through in 1990. So the stocks are almost 20 years old. Not Inlet for tang, thimbles and there’s a lot of extra wood to shape.

I’m thinking about getting one ; if it’s not good I can always eBay it.
 
That is very interesting. Thank you.

If you do decide to get it, please let us know of the Miroku or other Bess lock plate/s fit the lock mortise. That is one thing I would be concerned about if the inlet was too large.

Gus
 
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