Breech loading Flintlock

[Claude Mathis]

EXTREMELY RARE "MANTON" SIGNED BREECH LOADING FLINTLOCK RIFLE, ca. 1810: In overall fine original flintlock condition. The key fastened, octagonal, deeply rifled, .70 caliber, 28 1/2", iron barrel with an integral side-mounted threaded breech section, which accesses the powder chamber. The top of the breech with a "*"/R. W" maker's mark and a "PRO" "VED:" (Birmingham, ca. 1800) proof mark. The maker's mark is that of Richard Wilson 1 (1772-1805), who worked in London, UK (please see H. L. Blackmore's: Gunmakers of London 1350-1850", pg. 203). Walnut fullstock of quasi-military design with a robust comb-less butt section and a heavy forestock: nicely checkered wrist. Fitted with its original, martial type, brass mounts. Brown Bess type butt-plate with a stepped finial, three (3) baluster ramrod pipes, a pin-fastened nose-cap and an acorn finial type trigger-guard with a pointed rear. The side of the breech fitted with its original iron screw-lever-- which unthreads to expose the breech, for loading: the Paktong bridle is screw fastened to a rectangular brass base. The system is reminiscent of a side-mounted "Ferguson" and is very similar to the design of breech-loading rifle made by James Wilkes (please see H. L. Blackmore's: British Military Firearms", pg. 145). Fine quality lock with an engraved French type hammer, a sliding rear safety (defective), scroll engraved borders, a bridled waterproof powder-pan and a roller on the frizzen spring. Signed under the powder pan with a "MANTON" signature in engraved block characters, for. J. Manton of London, UK (please see H. L. Blackmore, pg. 137-138). In overall fine original flintlock condition. The barrel with smooth surfaces, sharp contours/markings and its original platinum touch-hole liner: fine bore. Some isolated patches of discoloration, moderate pitting overall and light wear. Retains its original, iron, "buck-horn", rear sight. The lock with matching smooth surfaces, 15% original polish, scattered pitting, some wear to the signature and in mechanically functional order: associated top-jaw. Very fine stock with much of its original finish, some light handling marks, a tight hairline at the fore-end tip and very good checkering at the wrist with, some light wear. The hardware with a lightly toned mustard patina and evidence of a light cleaning. A very rare and well made Breech-Loading Flintlock Rifle by a member of the esteemed "Manton" gunmaking Family. A unique opportunity to acquire an authentic English Military type Breech-loading Flintlock OFFICER"S Rifle. ***Quite possibly a privately commissioned, experimental-type, officer's weapon: as suggested by its overall appearance and large caliber. Retains its original iron cleaning rod. Overall length, 44 1/2".
http://www.ambroseantiques.com

 

[Croppy Boy]

An interesting looking gun but pray tell, how would you go about loading it?

 

[tg]

It would be interesting to see how one loads the powder and keep it in place while putting in the ball and not having an air space behind the ball.

 

[Semisane]

I suspect you put the ball in through the breech hole, shift it forward against the rifling, then fill the breech with powder.

 

[F.G. Ford]

No Claude!
That is just a slightly over sized touch hole on the wrong side of the barrel!
There, now everybody knows how smart I really am.
Old Ford

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

That's about it--pretty much like a sideways Ferguson rifle.

 

[Moloch]

What?
Wouldnt the pressure blow the breech hole cover into the soldier standing next to you while firing?
Does not sound very safe to shoot that rifle!

 

[bingo1952]

It appears to be threaded to me. It should be safe enough. It obviously has not blown up and Manton was not known for producing junk guns. Maybe a little impractical sometimes but safe enough especially for the time period. It makes the wheels spin in my head. :haha:

 

[Claude Mathis]

It appears to be threaded to me

I agree. Look at the position of the lever when it is both open and closed. It appears to lock into place when closed.

Something I think about when I see "breech loading" or "inline" flintlocks... If they worked well, everybody would have been making them. These things are rare for a reason.

 

[Moloch]

Of course its threaded, the tiny screws at the stock wouldnt withstand the pressure. But its not like a tiny breech plug, IMO the plug is too big and the pressure has a lot of surface wo work at. The plug is the same size of the round ball caliber of the barrel, so it must withstand the same force which drives the ball out of the barrel, and thats for sure a lot of stress for any thread.
Sounds dangerous, but apparently it worked. :hmm:

 

[bingo1952]

Engineering standards were just begining to be explored at the time this was made. Assuming a 1-3/8 breech OD (and this is speculation) using a 3/4-16 thread with a 3/16" boss and a .3325" wall thickness you would have .52 inches of thread length. The pressure on the loading port screw plug assuming a 7,500 psi working breech pressure would be 3,135 psi. As to powder charge and type this would have been loaded with musket grade powder. This probably wouldn't generate the pressures that 2F or 3F would. It would probably have been in the 6,000 lb range with 2,443 psi acting on the plug.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The side of the breech fitted with its original iron screw-lever-- which unthreads to expose the breech, for loading: the Paktong bridle is screw fastened to a rectangular brass base. The system is reminiscent of a side-mounted "Ferguson" and is very similar to the design of breech-loading rifle made by James Wilkes (please see H. L. Blackmore's: British Military Firearms", pg. 145).

Actually, this screw-plug system distinctly predates the "la Chaumette" system, let alone Ferguson's evolution from it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock http://www.answers.com/topic/breech-loading-firearms

Joel

 

This does not really appear to be a "sideways Ferguson". On the Ferguson, the breech plug was behind the powder chamber and went all the way through the barrel; in effect, the breech plug became the back end of the powder chamber. In appears in this picture that the barrel plug is in front of the powder chamber, and must not go all the way through the barrel. If so, this is not nearly as strong a system as the Ferguson. But is it hard to tell for sure from the photo.