Breech loading flintlock - Ferguson or Hall?

[Qes1984]

Greetings all,
New to the forums! (I might have had an account a while ago, but couldn't log in)

I'm really interested in breech loading flintlocks and I was looking for opinions on comparing the Ferguson rifle and the Hall rifle.

Which would you own if you had a choice?
Which one do you think is more durable and safer to shoot (re-productions)?
Which one will foul up faster?

Thanks so much!
Be well
Best Regards,
Kevin H.

 

[tenngun]

Hall
Ferguson were said to be easy to foul up the screw
I never owned ether one and only shot a Hall so my experience is nonexistent

 

[Zonie]

It's just a guess but I think the Hall would be the better design.

I say this based on the thought that the Ferguson design goes back to the days of the Revolutionary War so it's design was known in the early 1800's when the Hall was designed. To the best of my knowledge, later production of the Ferguson never happened.

The Hall was sold as a sporting rifle starting in 1811 thru 1818 (Flayderman's Guide). Although only possibly 150 were made, I think if the design must have had some merit to stay in production for that many years.

Of course, the Percussion fired Hall was accepted by the Army and was produced in 1834-1839 with 7,163 made. If the basic design of the Hall wasn't good, the military wouldn't have purchased as many as they did.

 

[Qes1984]

Hello tennegun,
Thanks for your reply and input.
You're lucky you were able to shoot a Hall!
What's the story there (if you care to share)?

Hello Zonie,
Thanks so much also for your lengthy and detailed reply!
You make good points
Do you think I'll have any luck finding a re-production one for sale in the for sale section?
I wonder how much someone would charge to build the kit if the rifle shop has the parts for sale in stock.
Or do you think a novice has much luck building from the parts set?

Thanks so much again guys
Have a great rest of your week
Cheers,
Kevin

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m not a fan of any flintlock breech loaders.

While the idea of own a Ferguson is interesting, the rifle itself is very delicate, mishandling it can break the stock around the lock area.

I don’t know much about that Hall rifle, other than it jamming often.

 

[rickystl]

Welcome to the Forum

Here's your chance....likely never run across this opportunity again. I'd grab this quick.....

https://www.lodgewood.com/M1819-Flintlock-Hall-Rifle-W-Lined-Barrel_p_5074.html
Rick

 

[rickystl]

And another:

https://www.lodgewood.com/Unfired-Custom-Ferguson-Rifle_p_5069.html
Rick

 

[Feltwad]

Greetings all,
New to the forums! (I might have had an account a while ago, but couldn't log in)

I'm really interested in breech loading flintlocks and I was looking for opinions on comparing the Ferguson rifle and the Hall rifle.

Which would you own if you had a choice?
Which one do you think is more durable and safer to shoot (re-productions)?
Which one will foul up faster?

Thanks so much!
Be well
Best Regards,
Kevin H.

Has the Ferguson and the Halls patents of breech loading flintlocks are the best known there were other patents , I often wondered what was the Idea of this type of a flintlock loading when a loading from the muzzle was just has quick
Feltwad

 

[rickystl]

Woops. Sorry. I just realized it mentions "out of stock" My error. Might be worth a phone call to check.

 

[Rum River]

Qes1984,
I receive the Black Powder (unmentionable) News. The last 2020 issue has a very good article on the Hall. The author relates how the troops in the field personally felt about them, what was necessary to keep them running, etc. Overall was very positive with quite a lot of information. If you don't have access to the magazine I'll scan it for you.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The Ferguson was much more fragile than the Hall. There is little wood left behind the lock because of the massive breech and virtually all surviving military examples, and there are several because they were not just made by British Ordnance, are broken through the lock area. With proper lubing I can fire 30-40 rounds through my Ferguson without worrying about fouling and it is very accurate out to 100 yards. The Ferguson balances and handles much nicer than the full length flintlock Hall but the latter is a much stronger gun and a better design for rough military use. Both guns suffer from gas escape but I believe the Hall was worse, particularly after it wore a bit. I closely examined the original ordnance Ferguson at the Morristown Historical Museum. Most modern makers don't realize how dainty the gun really is. They tend to build their recreations too bulky. The original issued rifles were completed in a hurry and the stocks show it. The lock is pretty good but not a great design because the flint cock does not over hang the pan very much when at rest. You need to use long flints to push the frizzen over quickly. Finally, most modern builders have it in their heads that military guns all have dull "in the wood" oil finishes. British military guns during the 18th century were finished with a thick oil varnish that leaves a slightly glossy look. Why? Because the varnish was harder on the surface and dried much faster than an "in the wood" oil finish.

Feltwad, writing from experience with my Ferguson, it is much faster loading than any muzzleloading rifle. Indeed, when I shoot mine, I am loaded so fast that I sometimes think "did I forget something?" However, Patrick Ferguson's primary claim for the design was that it allowed his men to load more easily lying down. He intended his rifle corps to be scouts, pickets, and snipers, not battalion men.

dave

 

[TFoley]

Anybody who cares to do so can see an article on Youtube by Mark Novak in which he repairs/reinforces a Ferguson rifle around the breech - the 'thinth' of the wood material at that point is fearsome to behold.

There are a few good videos, too, with actually shooting, if you care to look. Like this one, from old friend Ian McCollum -



To make one from the TOW parts, if they can provide them in a timely manner, that is, seems to cost between $4000 and 6000, but this might be hot air. Whatever, it is certainly no bargain. Buying the real thing, when you can find one, is not for the faint-hearted, either. You have to seriously want one. Even a Hall, here in UK where they as rare as they are where you live, you are looking at around $5000 - this is for a 1819 model.

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/extremely-rare-j-h-hall-1st-model-1819-harpers-ferry-breech-/rifles/8827
Better be quick.

And as for the rate of fire, Major Ferguson actually demonstrated his rifle to a bemused group of onlookers by firing whilst advancing - four shots in one minute at 300 yards, and then, standing, six shots in one minute at 100 yards. Add to that the serious advantage of being able to reload whilst lying down, and you can see why he was the target of choice at Kings Mountain, where his body was found absolutely riddled by shooters of older-styled muskets...

 

[TFoley]

I just found this YT movie of Ricky Roberts at the 2010 King's Mountain re-enactment occasion...

 

[Grenadier1758]

If I remember correctly, there were no Ferguson rifles at King's Mountain.

 

[TFoley]

Here is Mark Novak's YT movie.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO-CoUTmD5A

 

[TFoley]

If I remember correctly, there were no Ferguson rifles at King's Mountain.

I don't know. That's the name of the location where Ricky Roberts is shooting his Ferguson rifle replica [?], not a list of equipment used in it. However, Major Ferguson was certainly there; shot off his horse, his foot caught in the stirrup, he was dragged into the enemy lines and slaughtered with bullet and bayonet.

 

[Col. Batguano]

An advancement of design from the Hall are the Scandinavian (under hammer cap lock) Kammerladers. There is a bit more camming action with them in getting the breech to seal to the barrel. But they all leaked gas at least somewhat. Steel doesn't obdurate the same way that brass cartridge cases do to give you that same degree of a seal. I personally find their architecture to be ugly, but fascinating at the same time.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
For years folks have looked for evidence of Ferguson rifles at King's Mountain. Recently, a fired bullet of carbine bore was found that showed evidence of rifling. Of course, that could be from a British pattern 1776 muzzleloading rifle, of which many more were issued than Fergusons. There is a flintcock recovered that some claim was from a Ferguson. It is an open question I guess.

dave

 

[Sam squanch]

There was a hall carbine in the capital museum in Jeff city, Missouri. The whole side of the stock at the breech section was blown out. Probably loose powder worked it’s way down there. No thanks.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

.... With proper lubing I can fire 30-40 rounds through my Ferguson without worrying about fouling and it is very accurate out to 100 yards. The Ferguson balances and handles much nicer than the full length flintlock Hall but the latter is a much stronger gun and a better design for rough military use. Both guns suffer from gas escape but I believe the Hall was worse, particularly after it wore a bit....

Having never fired the Hall, I'm not 100% sure, but..., I'd rather use the Ferguson where the flash from the pan goes from the side of the rifle to my right, than the Hall where the flash from the pan is on top of the rifle on the same plane as my eyes.

LD