Brace of travelers pistols

[kelleyjk]

great reply reckon Im just not as bright as you are so you win :surrender:

 

[colmoultrie]

Let's look at this another way...

The look of these guns screams "inexpensive Belgian hardware-store make" to me. Sorry, but they do not have the look of high-quality pieces to my eye. I believe that all firearms imported into Germany also had to be proofed - not only indigenous manufacture.
If that is the case, it might be possible that the pistols are earlier, made in Belgium or perhaps the US, and they were imported into Germany for some reason after 1891 (heavens knows why). That would explain the anachronistic markings, although it wouldn't explain why anyone would want to bring them into the country.

 

[ken.clements]

c. I reckon some would be gunsmith apprentice couldve made them as a high school science fair project but now thats even more "off the wall" I think :hmm:

Sir - I'm sorry that my style is not to your liking, but I'm trying hard to put as much information as I can to you in a way that makes some sense to you.

Here in Europe things are MUCH different to the way things are done in the USA. It IS a different culture entirely where guns are concerned, at least.

Here is what a person has to undergo to call himself a gunsmith here in Europe.

In Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, Finland and Austria, if you are clever enough, handy enough and practical enough, you might try to become an apprentice gunsmith at age 18 at tech school. There you might attract the attention of one of the many gunmaking companies who will take you on as an apprentice.

You just might be qualified to call yourself a gunsmith by the time you are aproaching your 25th birthday. Unlike the USA, where you can do a six-month postal course and call yourself a gunsmith, that does not happen in Europe.

At all stages of their training, apprentices are required to undertake practical tests of their growing skills by written and practical demonstration. My friend Manfred Effmert, a master gunmaker in NordRhein-Westphalen, told me that his first test piece, after spending three weeks learning how to use a file, was to make a brass sphere out of a cube, and an aluminum cube out of a sphere - all by hand.

His 'Meisterstuck' - his guild qualifying piece -was a completely-finished 9.3x74R double rifle. He is a Master Gunmaker, and as such, may take apprentices of his own.

Such APPRENTICE test pieces that are sold on - clearly identified as such - are not uncommon in Germany.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

I believe this is misleading information (misleading as in not complete)
the european education system is different than the Americian. I know this because I have done both and completed both and trained apprentices in both countrys.
Tech School in the US is comparable to a Highschool Education (beginning ages of the students are the same)with the differences that instead of a general education in all directions the education is primarly based on the Apprenticeship and the needs therof.
The German Apprenticship beginns after the High School Graduation (or equivalent therof). The ages difference that was so specifically mentioned in the above quoted Artikel is a result of this...not higher education levels, just more time for general education and not job specific.
The Master (meister) Title, although an acomplishment in itself (and not to be belittelt)is a academic title and no more. The title of "Master" (in Germany)is more schooling in and around subject areas of but not limited to Taxes, Work Safety, Contracts, Laws, First Aid, leading people etc. etc. and not to the job specific hand on qualitys that are implied above. It does not mean someone can take this school book information and translate into quality objects (for example houses from a master mason or guns from a master gunmaker).
The cube and ball filing mentioned above sounds more like apprenticeship than a Master Schooling.
Please do not take take this as an afront to your friend or to yourself, it is not writen as such.
But like I said I've done both and have seen, felt and observed the differences.
and btw just to keep me and others on the ground....a man/woman who has a score of 60.1 (60 being the cutoff point) in a medical finals exam is still called....a doctor (which by the way is also a academic title in Germany)

 

[kelleyjk]

Let's look at this another way...

The look of these guns screams "inexpensive Belgian hardware-store make" to me. Sorry, but they do not have the look of high-quality pieces to my eye. I believe that all firearms imported into Germany also had to be proofed - not only indigenous manufacture.
If that is the case, it might be possible that the pistols are earlier, made in Belgium or perhaps the US, and they were imported into Germany for some reason after 1891 (heavens knows why). That would explain the anachronistic markings, although it wouldn't explain why anyone would want to bring them into the country.

That is interesting a local gunsmith / gun collector (Jackson Arms Dallas) that looked at these years ago thought they were Belgian too, of course my Dad disagreed preferring to believe the story he had been told by the old guy he got'em from

and yeah, no apology required I never suggested they are high quality pieces, theyre not for sale so value is of little importance to me, you can tell the triggers are crudely fashioned the backstraps arent cut straight, the trigger guards are held on with bradded pins etc

just trying to figure out their age and origin and still find very little logic in them being sold in the 20th century along side Lugers unless they were meant to be decorative, never saw an imitation wall hanger with proof marks though

(Pier 1 sold fake pirate pistols for a while though my Dad wouldnt let me have one because he knew Id probably dump some powder in it and try to shoot a marble or a ball bearing out of it!)

 

[jaxenro]

"I'm betting that there was no such thing as a 'hobby shooter' [of the kind that you describe] in Germany between 1914 and 1939"

I don't know if there were what we call "hobby shooters" active in Germany at that time but there were groups that did what we would term "reenacting", sort of. I think they did Frederick the Greats wars and others and did so as a hobby. I remember a reference somewhere in a book about Goering where they we acting as waiters at one of his hunting parties.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I have a modern repication of that made by Hoppe's called the "Ethan Allen", in .36 cal. Has a single trigger that fires each barrel independently.
Interesting. :hmm: