Just J said:
Yeah I never wanted to tote around a double barreled .50 or Howah or Howdah or do-dah whatever but these little guys would carry real nice and easy, we even put caps on them as kids and shot paper balls out of them in the workshop!
I asked the question about "recreational hobby type shooters" buying old muzzleloaders because I dont understand why anyone would carry these as serious sidearms against an opponent weilding a Borchardt or even a Webly or something in any kind of a gun fight. Back in those days antiques werent really cherished so much as discarded so a replica market so to speak wouldnt make much sense!
In any case these have been shot enough to have pitting around the snail area and the bores are dark and pitted, looks like someone tried to clean them up but not since they were given to my father.
All the parts appear to be one off, handmade sort deals the file marks are still present in some areas, the barrels are actually tapered and those stamps well theyre obviously hand jobs :redface: maybe the builder was himself, a hobbiest of sorts.
Sir - you have pretty much gone off track here. The manufacture of firearms in Germany, previously a collection of independent states, has been strictly regulated since at least 30 April 1867, with the promulgation of the first Prussian Proofhouse in Solingen by royal decree. At that time, all the various states that were eventually make up the unified German had their own proof-houses and gunmakers' guilds. As such, the 'hobbyist' gunsmith is a totally alien concept to the German way of thinking. After the successful unification of Germany by Bismarck in 1871, and the accession of Kaiser Wilhelm I, the Reichstag of the United Germany later voted the final Proof Act Act into law on 19 May 1891, and the new system came into full use on 1 April 1893.
There were, and still are, no 'hobbyist' gun-makers of the kind that you describe in Germany then, or now. The likes of our own Mike Brookes are an American thing. Only a registered gunmaker with a guild certificate and at least a seven-year technical and guild apprenticeship behind him can legally make a gun in Germany. The awesome titles carried by these gentlemen should give you an idea - Der Amptliches Buchsenmachermeister - Official Master Gun-maker.
It IS a possiblity that these two pistols were made by an apprentice - the somewhat crude handiwork would support this theory. They lack the fine fit and finish usually associated with a completed German firearm of the time, and are, in any case, highly anachronistic in style and type - another pointer to them being guild test pieces or apprentice work.
Hand-applied stamps ARE hand applied - by the inspectors at the appropriate proof house, using a stamp and a hammer - even today. I cannot see the proof house stamps on these pistols, but I'm pretty sure that they are there somewhere - they SHOULD be in full view, as are the other stamps. I would emphasize that the font used the make the stamp 'STAHLJ' is VERY modern in style, on review possibly 1920's at the earliest.
BTW, to counterfeit such markings is a very serious crime in Germany - the crown over U - Untersuchung [inspection] is the royal crown, and can only be applied by an official of the Proof House by deputised royal decree - now federal decree. As such, counterfeiting a proof mark was then and still is on a par with coin counterfeiting. I'm not saying that it never happened, but Germany had no empire of people desperate for firearms, like the British did, to cater for a black-market of fakes and/or cheap guns.
As for somebody - 'highwayman'? - wielding a Borchardt or a Webley, IMO both scenarios are pretty much off the wall - the last highwayman in the UK, James Snooks, was hanged in May 1801. A German highwayman is even less likely, as the price of the Borchardt, when it was produced, was about two year's wages for the average German working man. With many well-founded gun-makers, the likelihod of any European apart from somebody from UK using a Webley is passing rare.
tac, with apologies for coming back.