BP Revolver timing

[Dale Lilly]

What does it mean that a revolver is out of timing, and what is the proper repair?

 

[SDSmlf]

What does it mean that a revolver is out of timing, and what is the proper repair?

@45D has posted detailed explanations in the past. Search his posts or maybe he will respond to this thread.

 

[45D]

What does it mean that a revolver is out of timing, and what is the proper repair?

A SA revolver is out of time if the bolt "drops" on the cylinder too early, too late (it generally is dropping on the edge of the locking notch) or if the trigger engages the full cock notch before or after cylinder lockup. All of these are indicators of "out of time".

The way to set correct time is by first having a correct length hand. The hand will have the correct length when cylinder lockup and full cock happen simultaneously (sounds like one click).
Next will be bolt drop ( the second click). The bolt should drop on the cylinder 1 - 1.5 bolt widths before the locking notch. It's generally in the middle of the approach if one is present.

That will give you the 3 clicks a correct SA should have: half cock, bolt drop and full cock ( A Colt SAA will have 4 clicks because it has a safety notch).

Lastly, the reset can be adjusted if needed. On cap guns, it should be at or just before the nose of the hammer breaks the plane of the recoil shield.

Mike

 

[Dale Lilly]

Thanks Mike. Now what is the result of a gun being out of time? I know, I should know this stuff but I don't. Dale

 

[45D]

Thanks Mike. Now what is the result of a gun being out of time? I know, I should know this stuff but I don't. Dale

Well, if the bolt is dropping on the edge of the locking notch, it will peen or move material into the notch and eventually not allow lockup. Also, if it's dropping late, throw-by will be a problem with anything more than "casual" cycling. Full cock after lockup will wear the hand /ratchet teeth and trigger sear / hammer notch. Full cock before lockup could allow firing out of battery (especially where LP primers are used).
Of course, heavy spring tension will accelerate most of the above. Main thing is, it won't get better or "fix" itself. Setting up a revolver correctly will allow it to run efficiently and indefinitely ( and won't have ugly beauty rings on the cylinder!!)

Mike

 

[Dale Lilly]

Well, if the bolt is dropping on the edge of the locking notch, it will peen or move material into the notch and eventually not allow lockup. Also, if it's dropping late, throw-by will be a problem with anything more than "casual" cycling. Full cock after lockup will wear the hand /ratchet teeth and trigger sear / hammer notch. Full cock before lockup could allow firing out of battery (especially where LP primers are used).
Of course, heavy spring tension will accelerate most of the above. Main thing is, it won't get better or "fix" itself. Setting up a revolver correctly will allow it to run efficiently and indefinitely ( and won't have ugly beauty rings on the cylinder!!)

Mike

Thanks again, Mike. I learned what I needed. Dale

 

[M. De Land]

What does it mean that a revolver is out of timing, and what is the proper repair?

That depends on who you talk to and their opinions. I feel early bolt drop is a plus as long as the bolt nose is polished and late bolt lift blocking rotation as the hand nose is crowding the ratchet tooth the most serious out of time issue other than a broken bolt/trigger spring . Early bolt drop checks and dampens rotation speed into lock up which tends to widen both the frame window and bolt notch in the cylinder. I've never felt bolt blocks below the frame window are necessary if the cylinder rotation is dampened.
The thing that needs to be remembered in hand/pawel fit is the relation of the hand nose to the ratchet tooth as it revolves. Contact with the ratchet tooth at the beginning of the turn is outside edge of the hand, passing through parallel ( mid stroke) into reverse angle of tooth and inside of hand nose at completion.
This is why hand thickness is important and not just the length. The test of proper hand fit is to drag a thumb on the cylinder while slowly moving through the whole cocking stroke. The bolt should drop firmly into full notch depth a bit before full stroke is complete but with no indication of ratchet tooth/ hand nose jamming. This fit allows some wear margin.
The contact of hand nose and ratchet tooth at this point is on the reverse angle of the tooth and on the inside of the hand nose. This is were ratchet tooth fitting with a Barret file and stones come into play if the teeth are not uniformly fit to the hand nose at stroke completion. One can quickly ruin a cylinder in this adjustment when/if required. This is spot and fit work accomplished with much patience.
The speed of rotation is also increased in the stroke from beginning to end and leverage is decreased as the contact between tooth and hand switches from outside (more leverage) to inside (more travel) of hand thickness.
One more adjustment often required is hand stretching or lengthening which is accomplished with a punch against an anvil or steel block, mid hand arm.

 

[wiscoaster]

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

 

[45D]

That depends on who you talk to and their opinions. I feel early bolt drop is a plus as long as the bolt nose is polished and late bolt lift blocking rotation as the hand nose is crowding the ratchet tooth the most serious out of time issue other than a broken bolt/trigger spring .

Of course this goes against Sam Colt's engineers, Jim Martin, Eddie Janis, Jerry Kuhnhausen who have adhered to the original Colt designed operation of the SA. I too, adhere to the designed cycle and have had excellent (predictable) results with longevity and reliability.

Early bolt drop checks and dampens rotation speed into lock up which tends to widen both the frame window and bolt notch in the cylinder.

The hand spring tension (according to the same folks and engineers noted above) is all that's needed for braking the cylinder for lockup . . . even in the case of fanning. I've
found that to be correct.

I've never felt bolt blocks below the frame window are necessary if the cylinder rotation is dampened.

The bolt block in place takes place of the " oversized" bolt window. In fact you could open the window across the rest of the frame and it would still be a closer tolerance than the standard opening without the block. It is the block that protects the notches, bolt and frame.

It does depend on who you listen to, the designers and engineers (especially for the basics) or folks that come up with their own ideas.

Obviously you can "adjust" or "modify" certain things but the basic function is the foundation that must be adhered to for any "good" mods to work.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

The bolt in the cylinder notch through a properly cut/posi

Of course this goes against Sam Colt's engineers, Jim Martin, Eddie Janis, Jerry Kuhnhausen who have adhered to the original Colt designed operation of the SA. I too, adhere to the designed cycle and have had excellent (predictable) results with longevity and reliability.



The hand spring tension (according to the same folks and engineers noted above) is all that's needed for braking the cylinder for lockup . . . even in the case of fanning. I've
found that to be correct.

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

The bolt block in place takes place of the " oversized" bolt window. In fact you could open the window across the rest of the frame and it would still be a closer tolerance than the standard opening without the block. It is the block that protects the notches, bolt and frame.

It does depend on who you listen to, the designers and engineers (especially for the basics) or folks that come up with their own ideas.

Obviously you can "adjust" or "modify" certain things but the basic function is the foundation that must be adhered to for any "good" mods to work.

Mike

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

 

[M. De Land]

Yes. folks who have their own ideas like Linebaugh, Galliger and Bowen !

 

[45D]

Yes. folks who have their own ideas like Linebaugh, Galliger and Bowen !

They don't rearrange the action sequence on a Colt / Ruger type action that I know of.
I'm pretty sure when you reach full cock on any of their SA's, the cylinder lockup happens exactly then.


Just to be clear, I do pretty extensive mods to the action parts for function purposes but also minor mods that allow the torsion springs to be used. That said, the factory timing sequence is per the book.

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Mike

 

[M. De Land]

They don't rearrange the action sequence on a Colt / Ruger type action that I know of.
I'm pretty sure when you reach full cock on any of their SA's, the cylinder lockup happens exactly then.


Just to be clear, I do pretty extensive mods to the action parts for function purposes but also minor mods that allow the torsion springs to be used. That said, the factory timing sequence is per the book.

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Mike

Read the books for a good base understanding then experiment and see if these opinions and ideas can be improved on and often times they can be. The bolt spring I show, early bolt drop, new wedge making and fitting, lower lug reduction and hand length fit are a few cases in point I have tested and found to be inprovements worth employing.
Lead slug barrel lapping is another almost forgotten art that has great accuracy enhancing potential in revolvers and long guns alike.
One thing I never do is assume any one man knows it all or has all the answers because he doesn't !
Some are good ideas and opinions some are pure apple sauce ! Most original factory build ideas were cost efficient and production orientated to simplicity and reasonable reliability not custom notions applicable to special needs. This is where the Linebaughs, Galligers and Bowens of the world show up and demonstrate their enhanced ideas on basic factory guns. Line boring and reaming is a huge accuracy enhancement used by these custom revolver pioneers that is not a factory option in main brand revolvers.

 

[45D]

Read the books for a good base understanding then experiment and see if these opinions and ideas can be improved on and often times they can be. The bolt spring I show, early bolt drop, new wedge making and fitting, lower lug reduction and hand length fit are a few cases in point I have tested and found to be inprovements worth employing.
Lead slug barrel lapping is another almost forgotten art that has great accuracy enhancing potential in revolvers and long guns alike.
One thing I never do is assume any one man knows it all or has all the answers because he doesn't !
Some are good ideas and opinions some are pure apple sauce ! Most original factory build ideas were cost efficient and production orientated to simplicity and reasonable reliability not custom notions applicable to special needs. This is where the Linebaughs, Galligers and Bowens of the world show up and demonstrate their enhanced ideas on basic factory guns. Line boring and reaming is a huge accuracy enhancement used by these custom revolver pioneers that is not a factory option in main brand revolvers.

I agree but the subject has to do with timing. Nothing you mentioned, other than a much too early bolt drop, has anything to do with timing.
Adding a "beauty ring" does absolutely nothing but scar the cyl and tell everyone " I can't setup timing". Like I said, I do extensive - parts mods, arbor reinstalls, arbor length correction, interference pins, bolt blocks, true recoil shields /rings, plus . . . none of which has to do with timing (although a bolt block will likely extend the cycle length because of the slop removed from the bolt).

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Mike

 

[M. De Land]

In addition to all the above mentioned, isn't it also (as a result of one or more of the above defects) that at full cock the chamber isn't aligned with the bore? Maybe the easiest to see visual tell-tale? And the worst result?

The bolt width and fit to the frame window and cylinder notch is what determines alignment of chamber with bore if all else is in with in spec. In spec does not mean alignment is perfect it just means within a factory tolerance of acceptability. Timing is irrelevant to alignment if the bolt drops into the cylinder notch fully and locks the chamber in firing position.
I check alignment in all my revolvers with the largest pin/plug gauge that will slip down the bore. I tip the revolver muzzle up at about 45 degrees and see if the gauge will slide into each chamber of it's own weight. I depth check each chamber with a cleaning rod to see if the gauge bottomed out in the individual chambers. Some times they won't which means misalignment to some degree.
This is why some chambers in a revolver produce better accuracy than others.

 

[M. De Land]

The bolt width and fit to the frame window and cylinder notch is what determines alignment of chamber with bore if all else is in with in spec. In spec does not mean alignment is perfect it just means within a factory tolerance of acceptability. Timing is irrelevant to alignment if the bolt drops into the cylinder notch fully and locks the chamber in firing position.
I check alignment in all my revolvers with the largest pin/plug gauge that will slip down the bore. I tip the revolver muzzle up at about 45 degrees and see if the gauge will slide into each chamber of it's own weight. I depth check each chamber with a cleaning rod to see if the gauge bottomed out in the individual chambers. Some times they won't which means misalignment to some degree.
This is why some chambers in a revolver produce better accuracy than others.

I would add that both the Pietta 51 and Uberti Walker I recently acquired passed the plug gauge alignment test on all chambers and there were no discernible tight spots in either barrel which all my earlier revolvers had and required lead hand lapping to level out .
This is some real precision being cranked out lately from the Italians !

 

[Sam squanch]

You just got lucky…... I avoid these problems by shooting two single shot pistols! After a long time tinkering with revolvers, I respect anyone who can tune one to perfection!

 

[M. De Land]

You just got lucky…... I avoid these problems by shooting two single shot pistols! After a long time tinkering with revolvers, I respect anyone who can tune one to perfection!

I have several single shot hand guns as well but they don't work very well for me in timed fire matches.
It has always been a surprise to me how accurate a revolver can be though if alignment is good and ball or bullet fits the barrel groove .

 

[M. De Land]

You just got lucky…... I avoid these problems by shooting two single shot pistols! After a long time tinkering with revolvers, I respect anyone who can tune one to perfection!

I've had to make quite a few new parts for 80's vintage revolvers (58,60 and 62 Police ) I have to bring them up to match quality. This has included barrel lapping, chamber mouth reaming, new forcing cones reamed, new triggers and wedges made of tool steel, new bolt/trigger springs fabricated and new sights milled out and dovetail fit.
The last two mentioned both needed an arbor plug end fit and a trigger swage in the 51 Pietta but all else was very tight,inline and uniform. I am favorably impressed with the factory work in both new guns.
The Walker will get a new dovetailed front sight and loading rod end catch but all else seems up to speed.

 

[M. De Land]

Of course this goes against Sam Colt's engineers, Jim Martin, Eddie Janis, Jerry Kuhnhausen who have adhered to the original Colt designed operation of the SA. I too, adhere to the designed cycle and have had excellent (predictable) results with longevity and reliability.



The hand spring tension (according to the same folks and engineers noted above) is all that's needed for braking the cylinder for lockup . . . even in the case of fanning. I've
found that to be correct.




The bolt block in place takes place of the " oversized" bolt window. In fact you could open the window across the rest of the frame and it would still be a closer tolerance than the standard opening without the block. It is the block that protects the notches, bolt and frame.

It does depend on who you listen to, the designers and engineers (especially for the basics) or folks that come up with their own ideas.

Obviously you can "adjust" or "modify" certain things but the basic function is the foundation that must be adhered to for any "good" mods to work.

Mike

There is zero braking action from a hand spring on cylinder rotation even if the chimney angle put additional tension on it. I could not detect any increase in hand nose pressure when I checked this in my revolvers! Even if it is true to some slight degree it is irrelevant to any braking action on cylinder rotation speed because the hand is continually pushing on and increasing the speed through out the stroke. Why is the speed increased , because as was already explained, at the beginning of the stroke the outside of the hand width is pushing on the ratchet tooth on the incline angle which is then transferred to the level of the hand nose mid stroke and finally to the inside of the hand width on the reverse angle in the end of the stroke which is moving the contact between hand and ratchet tooth ever closer to the center of axis. The farther from the center of axis produces more leverage but less speed. The closer toward the center of axis produces less leverage but more travel and thus speed. I understand that the ratchet is moving in and orbit in relation to the plane of the hand and that the teeth are changing and reverse angling in relation to hand width contact but contact does move closer to center of axis in the distance of orbit traveled in the 1/6 or 1/5 revolution of a cocking stroke.
In addition to this we have the increase of the hammer speed as one moves through the cocking motion from beginning to end in normal manipulation.
The last point, what has more leverage to brake/dampen/retard cylinder rotation, the close to axis hand nose on the reverse slop of each ratchet tooth or the very large circumference of the cylinder and the bolt nose with it's spring tension rubbing on it for half a stroke. It does the same thing in the leade cut to the notch but does it much more effectively on full circumference and longer contact of half cycle bolt drop.