Be Aware

[silly goose]

So, with that logic, would you say that its OK to use a .36, you know, because it could or should be bigger than .400 at some point in the long list of variables you are listing?

 

[cynthialee]

So, with that logic, would you say that its OK to use a .36, you know, because it could or should be bigger than .400 at some point in the long list of variables you are listing?

so why do I get the feeling you are trying to bait me?

 

[silly goose]

I'm trying to make sense of your logic. All of the jabber aside, the law says a projectile must be a minimum of .400. It makes no mention of after this or after that, or the what if's. So, If you feel that .395 is acceptable because of numerous variables that you justify... Then where does it stop?

I tend to be a law abider by choice, I don't agree with every law they put out there, but I don't have to. But I also see it pretty clearly, and all the manipulation and fancy talk doesn't change that.

I have been following this post right along. I believe the intent of this law is to limit the size of those plastic held things that we don't discuss on this forum. We all know it's done, but most on this forum or most with any big game hunting experience know that a .40 patched ball is quite light for big game and wouldn't choose to hunt with it if they had anything larger.

I have no dog in the fight, but I know that if posed with the same restrictions where I hunt, I wouldn't be using ammo that was knowingly illegal, and then try to use a bunch of Houdini language about all the what if's to justify it when caught.

So, about the baiting thing. Where would you draw the line? If you can justify using .395 with all the fancy talk, shouldn't another be able to justify going smaller with some more fancy talk? This is why they put a minimum in place. They probably don't feel a .40 prb is adequate for big game, yet will allow one of those fancy copper things, encased in plastic, in a zip gun because they are so popular.

 

[longcruise]

Well, Cynthia you finally have a witty phrase to insert to replace

{Insert witty phrase or saying here}

You can use instead;

so why do I get the feeling you are trying to bait me?

:haha: :haha: :haha: :stir:

 

[stinkyfeet]

What is the farthest you feel comfortable shooting Bambi with that .40?

I use 70 grains of 3f in it and the spot I was hunting the deer funnel through a creek bed and offer a 15 yard shot if they happen to be on the far side of creek bed 25 yards is the farthest.

 

[stinkyfeet]

silly goose: I have rifles from 32-58 caliber and have a mass amount to choose from. Any one that says a 40 caliber with 70 grains of 3f in it isn't sufficient for large game in this case a deer at a range under 25 yards max shot needs to rethink their logic. I have shot deer from the same fall down with a 54 caliber and the deer ran 100 yards with a double lunger, I have shot 2 small does around 100 lbs with the 40 with double lung shots and one ran just as far as the 54 kill, the other went 40-50 yards away. But I can personally attest that a 40 caliber with a good load and short range (avoiding shoulder shots) if very lethal as any other higher caliber is. Dead is dead.. I just love the light weight of the 40 caliber it fits very well and balances great, plus theres several yotes in the area as well and u get no money with a huge hole in them the 40 can do both, plus the gun out shoots the others hands. But for the record afterwards I switch to my 45 caliber and shot a small buck with it the next day after I had the run in with the GW.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Also this isn't directed at anyone in general. But if you state a 40 caliber is to small to shoot a deer with but have no hands on experience or ever seen a deer shot with one then what is your bases for stating its to small of a caliber. Maybe a 58 or above is wayyyyy to much gun to shoot a deer with and extreme over kill. Fact is if you limit your shot to under 50 yards take close well aimed shots, and put it in the kill zone the deer is dead just as fast as any other caliber. I have shot deer with a 12 ga 1 oz slug and had a heart shot and took out a shoulder and the deer still went 100 yards, and never had a single deer go over 100 with the 40 caliber. usually I take comments from people at face value but I have a feeling many people that say a 40 is to small for deer never owned or shot a 40 cal. or they aren't a hunter that scouts his/her deer and get close to them. Do I own larger calibers yes, do I use them yes, are they needed to kill deer NO. I am a diehard bowhunter using a longbow I scout my deer year round and pattern them. The spot I use with the 40 caliber is a 25 yard max shot so why the heck do I need anything larger then a 40 caliber. I sure don't need a 50-72 cal to kill a deer at that spot. It won't make the deer anymore dead then dead. Now if I was hunting over a soybean field, food plot, oak flat where a longer shot is likely then yes I will run a larger caliber to extend range. but to say a 40 caliber with a patch round ball with 70 grains of 3f close range isn't enough gun, you need to come hunting with me I will prove ya wrong. ok I feel better now sometimes people in this forum are just ummm misinformed and therefore put out bad info based upon their own personal bias.

 

[stinkyfeet]

:surrender:

 

[stinkyfeet]

:surrender:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I used to hunt a lot of medium & small game with a .36 (0.350" round balls) and, for me, I would not have the confidence to reach out to 80 yards with a .40 for 200#+ whitetail.

So, you say, you keep to 25 yards? That is good and commendable. If I am planning 25 yards I take a 1960's era recurve bow. 50 yards (or still-hunting bush) I take a smoothbore (light and fast) and when I bother with a rifle I sit where I can reach out to 100 yards with my .54. Very occasionally I have (though my eyes have limited me lately to 75 yards for "comfort").

If you have the discipline to limit yourself to 25 yard (or 50 yard even) motionless, broadside shots with no intervening twigs, saplings or other cover then I have no doubt the .40 will bring success. I play statistics and like to have a margin for error and nature.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Stumpy they run down a dried up creek bed with heavy thickets on both sides. I sit right on the edge of the clearing along the creek bed in a fall down it offers perfect cover, steady gun rest, or trusty long bow hiding point. The creek is about 10-15 yards wide as it comes through and maybe 3-5 yards of walking room along the edge or creek bed. Its actually a perfect funnel spot.

 

[Snakebite]

I agree with you on all accounts, although I wouldn't hesitate to take a deer with a .40 out to 50 yards.

I do not think seating a ball on the powder charge is going to increase the diameter of the ball, if so, you're using way too much pressure. I've recovered balls before and there may be an imprint of the patch, but no deformation into the grooves or from the lands.

I also think your honesty and the attitude you displayed probably did a lot to getting the charges dropped. I'm a retired SFC and have hunted on different Army posts, never had a problem but I was always upfront with any game warden that came around. I've never had an issue with any LEO, in fact, I've always been treated pretty well, but I'm also respectful. If there is a problem, you can always take it higher.

 

[silly goose]

2tall, you would be correct in that I have never used a .40 to hunt deer. If you read my whole post, you wouldn't have read that a .40 won't kill a deer, you would have read that "most" folks, including myself, don't think it is a big game caliber. Many states including mine, won't allow such a thing. I understand you are a talented individual, using it in a select location, but now I'll ask you this.

When a new guy comes to you and asks what caliber he should choose for deer hunting, would you seriously recommend the .40?

I have a .45 here that is waiting to be built, I currently use a .50. I have had great performance with a .50 thus far, but I have to tell you, I didn't feel overgunned watching a mature doe at 50 yards, through the sights last night at sunset. I would have liked to brought that doe home, but I play by the rules and sunset was 4:21, I use a watch and knew it to be a few minutes over. I may not fill the freezer this year, but I'd rather that then compromise myself. Still have 5-6 days left, just came in for breakfast and going back out for the rest of the day.

Don't take my posts personally, its just a discussion, and obviously not everyone agrees on everything.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Ohh heck sillygoose I understand your point and you are correct for a rookie hunter I would not recommend a 40 caliber for deer hunting as for most hunters are not patient enough especially an inexperienced hunter to do the work and get close and use extreme shot selection. I grew up in Michigan where a 40 caliber muzzleloader wasn't legal for deer but a 9mm is or was any pistol round over .38 caliber. Now I am not a scientist but I know for a fact which has more kinetic energy a 40 caliber prb or a 40 cal S&W. But the 40 caliber muzzleloader is not considered enough gun. This is where I have issues with all the rules and how they are written and where the hell is the logic that goes into making the laws. Heres another one that chaps my backside. In southern Michigan You can hunt with a 44 mag pistol but not a ruger 44 carbine/ lever action gun the logic the bullet travels to far hmmm its still the same round different gun. You can't hunt with a CF rifle round in a rifle but can use say a 30/06 in a TC encore pistol with the same logic the round travels to far thus the rifle is outlawed but you can use it in a pistol. :idunno: But a 30/06 round isn't over .38 caliber hmmm I don't get it. Heres another one a .410 slug is legal but not a 40 caliber smokepole is not. A .410 slug weighs 87.5 grains while a 40 caliber .395 prb weighs 93 grains and a say 70 grains off 3f load creates more speed and kenetic energy than the 410 slug :youcrazy: So wheres the logic..

 

[pmwest]

Laws are written by lawyers whose thought process is mostly governed by emotion. For the most part, logic escapes them. Glad your case was judged fairly. Just one comment on the letter of the law; if the rule is .40 diameter then by the standards for precision of linear measures any measured diameter between 0.395 and 0.404 would equal 0.40 inches.

 

[excess650]

So, I looked up the published regs on the Kansas site and found this:

MUZZLELOADERS
Muzzleloading rifles, pistols or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .40 inches diameter or larger. Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets may be used with muzzleloading rifles, pistols and muskets. Handguns may be possessed during big game muzzleloader only seasons but may not be used to take big game unless they are muzzleloading handguns.

The red is a highlight by me. If these regs are correct and accurate, your problem may have been the use of a round ball when a conical is required! :shocked2: Still worth pursueing the facts, IMO.

2 Tall,
After reading the above regulation, I'm of the opinion that you got a break. I don't see that PRBs are even allowed! Maybe it could be argued that a patch and sabot are essentially the same...and they do (or did) make sabots specifically for RBs (Hornady Hardball? captures the RB unlike the early "poly patch"), but those are 50cal with a .490" ball. It does specify a bullet(not sabot) at least .40, so that means 45cal with saboted .40/10mm or larger to me.

Its fortunate for you that the judge thought the regulation as vague. :thumbsup: Too often the bunny fuzz are overzealous. :td:

 

[Kapow]

Good on you for sticking up for yourself mate. It blows us away how many rules America has. We would never cope with all that scrutiny. I'd be in gaol half my life!

It is a shame that an activity such as hunting and fishing which kind of epitomise freedom have so many laws, rules and regulations.

 

[longcruise]

OTOH, the term bullet was applied to balls back in the day and well before the development of the conical. But, can't see the ks regs as being deliberately HC> :haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

It blows us away how many rules America has. We would never cope with all that scrutiny.

Can you order real blackpowder necessary for flintlocks through the mail? ;-)

 

[Herb]

You could use .400 diameter round balls. I have shot them in my .40's, compared to .380, .390 and .395 round balls, and they work just fine. Lee may have a round ball mold this size, or you can get them cast by Eddie May down in Georgia. Track of the Wolf has .400 hand cast pure lead roundballs for $10.30 a hundred. Use of them for deer hunting would put you in full compliance with the law. 70 grains of Goex 3f (if that is the 3F you used) is a good and powerful load.