Assembling a lock from castings

[Sdahl97]

I have looked through the forum, scoured YouTube and searched the internet and haven't exactly found what I'm looking for.
So my question is are there any videos or books you know of or forum threads on assembling, finishing and tuning locks from rough castings. I'm thinking of getting a cookson doglock from The Rifle Shoppe for a club butt Fowler(It would really be helpful if they actually had pictures of all the products they're selling) and would like to have an idea where to start, what piece you do in what order and the procedures involved before I buy one and start filling away.
A few years ago when I was going to start this build i was going to buy an assembled lock from The Rifle Shoppe but now I don't see myself being able to afford a $400 lock anytime soon.
Another question is what locks would be appropriate for a 1680s-1740s club butt Fowler from the North East PA/Hudson Valley area with Dutch/Germanic influences and styling. Again The Rifle Shoppe having pictures would be most helpful. With the Fowler being a completely new made gun for the earlier dates and it being more of a hodgepodge of recycled and new made parts assembled to make a gun for the later dates. A bit of a broad question I know. Just curious.
I have been getting into blacksmithing quite heavily the past couple years and want to try my hand at forging a lock from scratch eventually but want one to use as reference first.

Sean Dahl

 

[rich pierce]

You need a drill press, a lathe or willingness to have the tumbler turned, a lock-machining jig for drilling, heat-treating capability, numerous drills, taps, and reamers, and experience machining, filing and polishing, hardening and tempering.

Join ALR and look at the tutorials there.

Regarding which lock for an early to mid 1700s large fowler:
TRS 704, 693, 680, 695, 638, 636, 633, 630, 595, 590, 591, 560, 557, 554, 542, are all ones I’d consider.

 

[Sdahl97]

You need a drill press, a lathe or willingness to have the tumbler turned, a lock-machining jig for drilling, heat-treating capability, numerous drills, taps, and reamers, and experience machining, filing and polishing, hardening and tempering.

Join ALR and look at the tutorials there.

Regarding which lock for an early to mid 1700s large fowler:
TRS 704, 693, 680, 695, 638, 636, 633, 630, 595, 590, 591, 560, 557, 554, 542, are all ones I’d consider.

Join ALR?

 

[Sdahl97]

You need a drill press, a lathe or willingness to have the tumbler turned, a lock-machining jig for drilling, heat-treating capability, numerous drills, taps, and reamers, and experience machining, filing and polishing, hardening and tempering.

Join ALR and look at the tutorials there.

Regarding which lock for an early to mid 1700s large fowler:
TRS 704, 693, 680, 695, 638, 636, 633, 630, 595, 590, 591, 560, 557, 554, 542, are all ones I’d consider.

What do I need a lathe for? Turning the tumbler? I have watched locks be disassembled and reassembled and I haven't seen anything that I would need a lathe for. They all seem to be flat parts for the most part except a couple posts on the springs as pegs to keep the one side stationary on the lockplate and that looks like something easily fileable as long as you're not too aggressive and finish by polishing with stones until you get a smooth snug fit

 

[64Springer]

Join ALR?

American Long Rifle forum.

 

[Sdahl97]

American Long Rifle forum.

Thank you

 

[Scota@4570]

Did old timers make locks without lathes and mills, sure. They often made bad locks. The ones that made good locks had specialty tools like a tumbler mill. IF you spent you working life making locks you would make the special tools and fixtures.

For the one of lock maker, you need a lathe to true up the tumbler and drill/tap the cock screw. I would also only do so with collets, not a chuck.

As cast the parts are not usable. All of them will require work best done with machine tools. I used my lathe, mill and drill press to do one of their casting sets. You will also want a template to roughly locate the screw holes. The final precise location of the screw holes is part of the project.

You will want to ream the tumbler hole. The location of the hole in the bridle must be spot on. I lashed up a line boring fixture.

And, the frizzen on one of them was a problem. I gave up and let them harden it. Jess has some good case hardening agent that I do not.

Making a lock from a casting set is no small task. Good lock makers skip the castings and machine the internal parts from scratch.

Over at ALR read up on lock making by Bob Roller and others.

 

[rich pierce]

I’m trying to save from disappointment and failure here. It is totally impractical for an inexperienced person to try to assemble a lock from castings, especially if they do not know where to start or what’s involved and want a step by step tutorial online. If this needs explanation, that seals the deal.

 

[billraby]

I agree with Rich. If you need instructions on how to do it, you are not likely to do it. "What do I need a lathe for?" Building a lock is not going to happen. "I have WATCHED locks be disassembled and reassembled" Once again, it is not going to happen.

I am not going to just say that you can't do it. Give up now. Here is how you do it. First step is to buy all the tools and equipment. It will likely be well over $5000 and could go much higher. Then learn how to use it and practice for a while. Learn how to do heat treating and metal finishing. Learn about the different steel alloys and their working properties. All lock casting have one major flaw. The parts will NEVER fit together. They make a mold from the original lock parts. The mold shrinks. They inject wax into the mold. The wax shrinks. They make an investment mold from the wax and pour the metal. The metal shrinks. Then you have to finish the parts. That removes metal so the parts shrink. After all of those steps the parts are too small to fit together. The holes in the lock plate are now in the wrong place. You have to redesign everything so it fits again. Are there any flaws in the castings? Probably. Now you get to learn how to weld.

It is certainly possible to build a lock from castings. But only a small number of gun builders do it. I would assume that nearly all of them come from some type of machinist background and have many years of metalworking experience. You could definitely do it if you put the effort into learning the skills required. But it is going to take a good amount of time and tools will cost far more than $400.

Buy this and put it together. Siler large right Flint Lock Kit, unassembled - Track of the Wolf It will give you an idea of what is involved in building a lock. Even comes with instructions. These kits are much easier than working from castings.

 

[1950DAVE]

I built this from scratch, all except screws, with help from bandsaw, forge, drillpress, lathe and grinders. Crude but effective.
I would not discourage anyone from attempting a lock from castings, just go in with eyes open.
There may be a reason for TRS charging +double for an assembled lock.

 

[Sdahl97]

I agree with Rich. If you need instructions on how to do it, you are not likely to do it. "What do I need a lathe for?" Building a lock is not going to happen. "I have WATCHED locks be disassembled and reassembled" Once again, it is not going to happen.

I am not going to just say that you can't do it. Give up now. Here is how you do it. First step is to buy all the tools and equipment. It will likely be well over $5000 and could go much higher. Then learn how to use it and practice for a while. Learn how to do heat treating and metal finishing. Learn about the different steel alloys and their working properties. All lock casting have one major flaw. The parts will NEVER fit together. They make a mold from the original lock parts. The mold shrinks. They inject wax into the mold. The wax shrinks. They make an investment mold from the wax and pour the metal. The metal shrinks. Then you have to finish the parts. That removes metal so the parts shrink. After all of those steps the parts are too small to fit together. The holes in the lock plate are now in the wrong place. You have to redesign everything so it fits again. Are there any flaws in the castings? Probably. Now you get to learn how to weld.

It is certainly possible to build a lock from castings. But only a small number of gun builders do it. I would assume that nearly all of them come from some type of machinist background and have many years of metalworking experience. You could definitely do it if you put the effort into learning the skills required. But it is going to take a good amount of time and tools will cost far more than $400.

Buy this and put it together. Siler large right Flint Lock Kit, unassembled - Track of the Wolf It will give you an idea of what is involved in building a lock. Even comes with instructions. These kits are much easier than working from castings.

When I say step by step I mean your going to want to want to start with shaping this part first then you're going to shape this part next to fit the first part. Not I've never done anything like this what do I do.

How do you know what tools and experience I have, what I have access to and what I'm capable of doing.

 

[Scota@4570]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/821/1/BOOK-CP-V1
Maybe this will help? It may give ideas. I do not agree with the instructions and order of operations. I am no expert but have some experience. For my way of doing things I would be better off to copy a good lock before trying to deal with a wonkie casing set. I would not expect success the first time. Make a caplock first. Making chips and having fun is reward enough.

Tools?? I have a 1940 Southbend heavy 10 with all the goodies including a full set of collets. I have a similar vintage index milling machine. I have two drill presses one is modern and the other is a big heavy machine that I have rigged to run very slow. Old iron is cheap. These machines are not respected today.

Get good steel for the working parts of your lock. Bob Roller recommended to me:

Springs 1075

Tumblers 1144 “stressproof”

Sears and flys 0-1

Screws 12L14

Lock Plates cold rolled 1018

 

[billraby]

I built a lock that had the pan as part of the lock plate. Location of the frizzen was based on the pan. Then located the tumbler where the cock would be the right distance and the proper angle to the frizzen. Locate sear based on that. Then make the bridle. Next make all the springs and adjust the tension relative to each other. Others may do it differently.

Building from scratch is probably going to be easier. You can make the parts so that they fit together. With castings you get a set of parts that are designed to work together, but they are all the wrong size and don't fit together anymore. Everything needs to be adjusted for that.

I don't know what tools or experience you have, but when you ask why you would need a lathe it leads me to believe that you do not have experience with machinist tools or building mechanical things. Watching locks being assembled and disassembled is not going to show you how much tension springs need relative to each other, how hard the different parts are, or what alloys they are made from. You have to know all of that stuff.

I have a lot of experience casting and assembling parts from originals. It is never easy. Add in springs, that are also cast from originals, that have to work together and it gets a whole lot harder. Mainspring for example. A reproduction is going to be about 4% to 5% smaller than the original. You are likely to have about 10% less spring tension. Might be too much of a loss for the lock to work properly. It is also probably going to be too short. Have to stretch it. Longer and thinner now. Lose another 5% to 10% of the spring tension. Not much chance of the lock working anymore. So you have to make it stiffer. One way is to thicken the spring. Another way is to change the temper. Both ways can make other problems pop up. You have to deal with this sort of thing on every part.

Get one of the Siler lock kits and give that a try. It is designed so that the parts will fit together after the finishing. Springs are already tempered so you don't have to deal with that. One of those kits will teach you a lot about building locks. Just realize that working from castings adds a whole new level of complexity.

Funny thing is probably will do a video about building a lock from castings some time. Maybe a wheellock. That could get interesting.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I have looked through the forum, scoured YouTube and searched the internet and haven't exactly found what I'm looking for.
So my question is are there any videos or books you know of or forum threads on assembling, finishing and tuning locks from rough castings. I'm thinking of getting a cookson doglock from The Rifle Shoppe for a club butt Fowler(It would really be helpful if they actually had pictures of all the products they're selling) and would like to have an idea where to start, what piece you do in what order and the procedures involved before I buy one and start filling away.
A few years ago when I was going to start this build i was going to buy an assembled lock from The Rifle Shoppe but now I don't see myself being able to afford a $400 lock anytime soon.
Another question is what locks would be appropriate for a 1680s-1740s club butt Fowler from the North East PA/Hudson Valley area with Dutch/Germanic influences and styling. Again The Rifle Shoppe having pictures would be most helpful. With the Fowler being a completely new made gun for the earlier dates and it being more of a hodgepodge of recycled and new made parts assembled to make a gun for the later dates. A bit of a broad question I know. Just curious.
I have been getting into blacksmithing quite heavily the past couple years and want to try my hand at forging a lock from scratch eventually but want one to use as reference first.

Sean Dahl

Don't let them get you down. I've assembled dozens of Rifle Shoppe locks from castings (flintlock, miquelet, snaphaunce, doglock, wheellock) and many go together quite nicely. Of course there are some tricks but in general tooling deficiencies can be overcome by time and patience. A lock parts set is often more available and being cheaper IF you mess up a part you can order another, say you mess up on the tumbler or frizzen in getting them straight. You can weld up the holes and order replacements and try again still coming in under the cost of a built lock and you are gaining experience. If memory serves the cookson is unbridled internally. I have the left and right that I am currently using for an early double rifle. Just sort of collecting parts and havent started the build yet.

 

[1950DAVE]

It's a downer to have someone tell you, you can't do something because you haven't the experience.
Keep your eyes open. Learn by doing, ignore naysayers.

 

[Sdahl97]

I agree with Rich. If you need instructions on how to do it, you are not likely to do it. "What do I need a lathe for?" Building a lock is not going to happen. "I have WATCHED locks be disassembled and reassembled" Once again, it is not going to happen.

I am not going to just say that you can't do it. Give up now. Here is how you do it. First step is to buy all the tools and equipment. It will likely be well over $5000 and could go much higher. Then learn how to use it and practice for a while. Learn how to do heat treating and metal finishing. Learn about the different steel alloys and their working properties. All lock casting have one major flaw. The parts will NEVER fit together. They make a mold from the original lock parts. The mold shrinks. They inject wax into the mold. The wax shrinks. They make an investment mold from the wax and pour the metal. The metal shrinks. Then you have to finish the parts. That removes metal so the parts shrink. After all of those steps the parts are too small to fit together. The holes in the lock plate are now in the wrong place. You have to redesign everything so it fits again. Are there any flaws in the castings? Probably. Now you get to learn how to weld.

It is certainly possible to build a lock from castings. But only a small number of gun builders do it. I would assume that nearly all of them come from some type of machinist background and have many years of metalworking experience. You could definitely do it if you put the effort into learning the skills required. But it is going to take a good amount of time and tools will cost far more than $400.

Buy this and put it together. Siler large right Flint Lock Kit, unassembled - Track of the Wolf It will give you an idea of what is involved in building a lock. Even comes with instructions. These kits are much easier than working from castings.

I do apologize if I sounded rude. But your wordings sounded a bit condescending and I do apologize for taking so long to reply and read through everyone's posts. Been a bit busy

 

[Sdahl97]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/821/1/BOOK-CP-V1
Maybe this will help? It may give ideas. I do not agree with the instructions and order of operations. I am no expert but have some experience. For my way of doing things I would be better off to copy a good lock before trying to deal with a wonkie casing set. I would not expect success the first time. Make a caplock first. Making chips and having fun is reward enough.

Tools?? I have a 1940 Southbend heavy 10 with all the goodies including a full set of collets. I have a similar vintage index milling machine. I have two drill presses one is modern and the other is a big heavy machine that I have rigged to run very slow. Old iron is cheap. These machines are not respected today.

Get good steel for the working parts of your lock. Bob Roller recommended to me:

Springs 1075

Tumblers 1144 “stressproof”

Sears and flys 0-1

Screws 12L14

Lock Plates cold rolled 1018

Thank you very much. I do appreciate it

 

[Sdahl97]

Don't let them get you down. I've assembled dozens of Rifle Shoppe locks from castings (flintlock, miquelet, snaphaunce, doglock, wheellock) and many go together quite nicely. Of course there are some tricks but in general tooling deficiencies can be overcome by time and patience. A lock parts set is often more available and being cheaper IF you mess up a part you can order another, say you mess up on the tumbler or frizzen in getting them straight. You can weld up the holes and order replacements and try again still coming in under the cost of a built lock and you are gaining experience. If memory serves the cookson is unbridled internally. I have the left and right that I am currently using for an early double rifle. Just sort of collecting parts and havent started the build yet.

Awesome. I can't wait to see pictures

 

[JHB]

The only way you will find out if you have what it takes is get off of here order the parts and get to it. Good luck.

 

[billraby]

Start off with one of the Siler kits. It would be a good introduction to building locks before trying one from castings.