anyone know specs of killdeer in last of mohicans

[Stumpkiller]

I just watched it again last week. Keep your eye on Mel's five holer bullet block. Throughout the whole movie it has 4 balls and one empty hole at the bottom, and he always digs balls out of his gear without ever using the block. I guess he's saving them for emergencies. :haha:

As far as British atrocities in the U.S., I'd buy everything but the trapping and burning of the civilians in the church. Though, a British Commander named Cumberland ordered such things during the Jacobite Rebellion of Scotland in 1745. Surrenders were refused. Women and children were purposely slaughtered to demoralize the rebels. How much would have changed in 30 years? And the things that Cromwell did to the Irish prior to 1700 are still are being retaliated against today. If a soldier slaughtered a Catholic family he "earned" the estate.

 

[Keith]

When the movie came out Muzzleloader did an article about Patriot. Mark Baker was a consultant, so I believe he wrote the article, or it might have been in a review in that mag, anyway. The article said that the Brits did burn churches. Unoccupied ones. The movie made it a massacre with people in it, ala Oradour sur Glane, for shock efect. In these jaded times it wasn't thought that simply burning a church would have the emotional effect to us that it did to the people of the 18th century.

 

[Kenney Moore]

Huntin Fool-

LOVE the Eckert books-

All- he's right- you've got to read this series...If you can find it. The editions I have were my father in law's - an avid history buff now passed away.

Howdy,
The Eckert book "The Frontiersman" is the first in "The Winning of America" Series. Excellent in its descriptions and it has a wealth of information in the footnotes. They are very hard to put down and stop reading once you start one.

 

[flaming canvas]

There were actually two of the guns.

http://www.dailyitem.com/archive/2003/1118/fea/stories/05fea.htm

 

[mark starr]

ref; movie Black Robe prairies Edge in Rapid City South Dakota Has Black Robe on DVD or Vhs call them or e-mail ask for the book dept they have a great slection of movies.Mark

 

[shunka]

Gentlefolk:

RE: British atrocities were diverse and many -
The burnings of the Irish and Scottish Homesteads, the taking of lands and settlement of "English" upon them (thus the difference and hostilities between the "true" Scots Highlanders, and the "interlopers" the Lowlanders) all of which leading to the mass immigrations to the Americas
Battle of Colloughdon, Scotland
Battle of Brandywine, America

etc, etc...

Re: The Patriot: I have heard that originally they were going to make a non-Disney version of the life of the Swamp Fox. As the project progressed, they kept many of the elements, including the use of "The Swamp" as an HQ., but incorporated many other Rev War Hero stories much like
"Jeremiah Johnston" was a conglomeration of the stories of several mountain men.

Re: the Church Burnings:
At this time in history, many folks don't see a Church burning as much more than "another burnt building".

There are some that still understand the enourmity as the Common People did in 1770; that a Church is a Holy Sanctuary, a dedicated House of Jehova, built upon consecrated ground.

If any act of violence is commmitted within a church, even today, the sanctuary is closed for however long it takes to have "specialists" come in and cleanse it physically and spiritually; bless it once again, and re-dedicate it as a house of the Lord. Sometimes, because of the act perpetrated, a church is permanently closed .

Also, burning was the ultimate form of destruction then -
Even now some people remember that something "really evil" would be "burnt to the ground, and the ashes strewn with salt".

Any attack like taht upon a church therefore carries a far greater meaning to those who honor this tradition.

IMHO, the interpretation by Hollywierd was done in order to make this violent and evil act clear to everyone.

my, this got grim didn't it?

best regards
shunka

 

[DanWalker]

Allan Eckert's Winning of America series has been re-published by the Jesse Stuart Foundation of Ashland, Kentucky. All six books in the series are available at The Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, Ohio.

Like several others, these books, along with Eckert's Dark and Bloody River (one of my all time favorite books), and A Sorrow in our Heart, the Life of Tecumseh, have played a big part in my interest in all things muzzleloading! Eckert's style is very readable and the narrative is absolutely mesmerizing. His books are highly recommended to anyone interested in the inexorable push of the Native Americans westward.

 

[ronnyvous1]

Re: the atrocities of the British.

Brit regulars and Dragoons were seldom accused of atrocities, however the Hessians were reputed to be pretty merciless. The Iroquois that allied themselves with the Brits, as well as many woodsrunners and "legitimate" Loyalist groups were quite brutal in their tactics. The Indians by nature and coercion (See:"scalp-buyer"), and many of the frontiersmen like the Girty's and whites that fell out with groups like Brant's Volunteers were strongly motivated by revenge. Tories were stripped of their homes and lands through confiscation up and down the Hudson and Mohawk Valleys, and sought the protection of Brit units at Niagara and elsewhere. When the chance to extract some payback from their former neighbors arose, events like the Burning of the Valley and Cherry Valley resulted.

Re: Last of the Mohicans,
The scene of the march from Wm. Henry, just prior to the massacre, as they enter the meadow, one can see in the foreground mixed in with the civilians a fellow with a megaphone and a baseball cap shouting instructions to the extras. It isn't in my DVD copy, but they never caught it until after VHS release, and it's there on my tape. There is also, just as they are marching out of the Fort, a bus in the background on VHS. Also, one of the stunt props from LOTM, a replica of Kildeer, caused quite a stir at our club Rendevous a few years back, when a guy, acting disgusted with a poor showing on the range,took his beautiful longrifle and threw it up against a tree to the shock of all of us standing around! It was a foam rubber copy used in the fight scenes, and when Natty was running around and doing things that didn't require the "real" rifle. I tried like heck to buy it at the time, but he wouldn't sell!!

Re: Historical Movies as a whole.
We lost one of the earlier movie consultants, and one of the best, this past year when John Arrasmith passed away. John did a lot of work for Dances With Wolves and others, and a number of his originals from his collections were used as props, including, I believe, Costners' hairpipe brastplate. Many of you will remember John from doing the Broken Arrow ceremony at camp council for the Eastern for many years. Good man, and a big loss.

 

[longshot47]

UUUMMMM....all these observations about firing order, weave count, bead color and sech --with no mention of the rondevous on the rampart that took place that smokey night in the fort??
Anyway, have any of you boys come away from your readins with the understanding that Cora was actually [ficticiously] a half indian house-maid for Munro? :redface:

 

[Turner1776]

Hi! A friend, Vern Crofoot, in Orlando worked as an armourer on LOM. :redthumb: The first rifle they had made was a shorter jaeger style but Michael Mann said it was not his idea of Hawkeyes rifle. So they bought I believe he said three from Watson. Supposedly Michael Mann kept one and the producer one also. Vern has one of the first jaeger style ones it was carried by other characters in the movie. JIM

 

[SimonKenton]

Longshot,

Cora, who DIED in the book, was half-sister to Alice. Cora's maternal grandmother was part West Indian slave. That came out when Heyward asked the Col. for his daughter's hand and Munro assumed it was the elder girl. When the Major explained that he meant Alice (who was also a bit slow-witted) Munro was furious assuming that Heyward had heard the tales of Cora's ancestry.
Cora had the hots for Uncas, not Hawkeye, and was murdered by one of Magua's men while he was fighting Uncas. Both Munro and Alice survived the tale along with Duncan Heyward. The BBC production of the early Seventies was pretty close to the book. More so than Mann's version.

-Ray :m2c:

 

[longshot47]

SimonK-
I guess thats called 'artistic license', or is it 'audience appeal'??
Thanks for the clarification.....Longshot :thumbsup:

 

[pcrum]

Re: the atrocities of the British.


Re: Last of the Mohicans,
The scene of the march from Wm. Henry, just prior to the massacre, as they enter the meadow, one can see in the foreground mixed in with the civilians a fellow with a megaphone and a baseball cap shouting instructions to the extras. It isn't in my DVD copy, but they never caught it until after VHS release, and it's there on my tape. There is also, just as they are marching out of the Fort, a bus in the background on VHS. Also, one of the stunt props from LOTM, a replica of Kildeer, caused quite a stir at our club Rendevous a few years back, when a guy, acting disgusted with a poor showing on the range,took his beautiful longrifle and threw it up against a tree to the shock of all of us standing around! It was a foam rubber copy used in the fight scenes, and when Natty was running around and doing things that didn't require the "real" rifle. I tried like heck to buy it at the time, but he wouldn't sell!!

I hate that tour bus! Once it was pointed out I see it every time!! :curse:
I never noticed the megaphone guy, thank god! What I can't figure out is why they didn't digitally remove the tour bus when they did the Director's cut. It was small enough and only in frame for a second or so.
One more goof- Did anyone else notice that when Uncas gets killed and Natty runs up through a gap in the rocks and yells, that the bolder he bumps up against is covered in a big painted piece of canvas? Normally it would have looked fine, but he bumps it and it moves. Supposedly the boulder had graffiti[sp?] all over it, so they had to do that. What I can't figure is wouldn't it have been better to paint over the graffiti rather than put a big painted canvas on it? ::

On Eckert- His books changed my life too. My woodshop teacher when I was a junior in highschool told me to read it. I can't thank him enough.

Cheers!

 

[Ridge]

I just wish the Shawnee word list in the back came with phonetical pronunciations. I'd love to learn a couple hundred Shawnee words to compliment my persona.

In the book "The Pioneers" Cooper gives the gauge for Killdeer.........works out to .54 Caliber. The only other references I've found in the books was something to the affect of "plain with few inlays". Cooper supposedly based the character on a friend of his fathers.

 

Wayne Zurl had Killdeer built a while back and wrote an article about it for the premier issue of Buckskinner. It's on page 21, you can read it at the link below.

http://www.buckskinnermagazine.com/Buckskinner_Premier_Issue.pdf

He has some very interesting observations.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

At the risk of flak for being silly, I have the specs of killdeer right here...

Yankee drivel, we'uns down south know a killdeer when we see one. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[ed zeransky]

did anybody notice the refrence uncas made in the begining of the movie to joseph brant? in 1757 brant would have been 17, a few years removed from reeking havoc on the frontier.by the way, i love the movie, that was just something i noticed.

 

[Danimarie99]

.

 

[Dobegrant]

it was a entertaining movie none the less

 

[Hawkeye55]

I was watching that on dvd last night and having a wonderful time.Everytime I watch the movie ,I see something new.Where can I maybe look at pictures of the rifle or even drawings and details about the gun itself.Fred Miller showed me his stock patern for the actual gun,Wayne Watson built the rifle, and I heard that the barrel was made longer by adding a 10 or 12" peice to it to make it longer.I think it was either a .50 or a .54 cal. someone said about the stock having some beads in it to indianize it ,but I cant see them in the movie.The movie rifle was stained a lot lighter than I prefer, but that was probably so it would show up better in the battle scenes.Does anyone else like the last of the mohicans?
juniata jack

The rifle was 50 cal, and a 48'' barrel, WITH A Breach plug extension So it would come to 50inches long.