Anyone had main charge go off while using ramrod ?

[roundball]

I was unlucky enough to see a guys flintlock go off just as he was seating the ball. The 3/8 fiberglass ramrod went thru his hand, then thru his upper arm and then thru the roof. The .50 rb went thru his hand and ended up on the backside of his wrist. He did survive and after many months of PT was alright. WHat happened? Well after lots of thought it seems the frizzen must have been closed and the hammer back. It was an older lock (late 60's, early 70's vintage) and wasn't the highest quality. Half cock on that thing was as almost as far as my SIler full cock. Six months earlier I saw a lady have a T/C pistol go off. Had cleaned the gun and forgot to snap the last cap off after snapping caps on the cleaned gun. She didn't get hurt bad. Slight cut/burn in palm of hand from ball starter.

Those are tragic things for sure, and lucky there was no more serious damage done...and I appreciate seeing the detail because deep in my mind, while I still keep my head away from muzzles, I have never really bought the fact that people have had spontaneous discharges without a preventable cause...ie: the lock condition and position in your example.

IMO, there are probably cases where folks are certain that there was no cause like the one in your example and the rifle "just went off", but I doubt that's reality...there always has to be an ignition source and I believe human error is way high on the list of causes.

BP needs to be respected of course but it's not nitroglycerine...they ship cases of Goex to me cross country in a cardboard box...thanks for posting

 

[Thamaz]

Once the powder has dropped into the breech indicated by smoke blowing out of the vent, if an unscheduled ignition doesn't occur now then I highly doubt that it will.

Heared on my last reenactment a guy shot himself in the stomach when leaning over his muzzle. It was less than a minute after he reloaded the musket He used a paper wad rammed down ontop of the powder. Post shot analyzis showed that the primercap was not hammered (the shot went off by an ember. The guy survived with a hefty bruise.

Forbidden or not, all I know of blows a good breath down the barrel after each shot.

There should be no risk having BP go off just by ramming the bullet in place. There is a standard test where you test the sensitivity of explosives. One gram (ca 16 grains) is put in a .30 drilled hole in a solid steel lump, a steel rod with snug fit is inserted ontop of the explosive. The rod is long enough to protrude on top of the lump the sensitivity is then tested by having a one Kg (ca 2 pound) steel weight falling on the rod, starting at a low falling distance, increasing the falling altitude until the explosive goes off. If I remember correctly the BP goes off when the weight is allowed a free fall of 2 meters (abit more than two yards).

The best way avoiding accidents is not to rush things and use ones imagination.
:m2c:

How about having a U-bent ramrod, with the handle convenient located beside the barrel?

Take care!

Cal .61

 

[Wehrmacht]

Very early in the War Of The 1860's my great grandfather,serving in Confederate General Zollicoffer's command, during a minor skermish had his musket to go off as he was seating the ball.The ramrod went through his hand leaving him with a distorted hand that was paralized. He was discharged out of service because he could no longer load and fire.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Forbidden or not, all I know of blows a good breath down the barrel after each shot.

I suppose, but in my flint and steel experience, blowing on a small flame blows it out. Blowing on a small ember makes it burn hotter. How do you know you're not just getting it stoked up for when the powder comes down?

I though the blowing was just to keep the fouling soft for those who were lube challenged.

 

[brubincam]

if there is an ember in the barrel, it will ignite while loading,,,if you blow down the barrel and flare an ember it will ignite while loading,,,, :what:

 

Forbidden or not, all I know of blows a good breath down the barrel after each shot.

I suppose, but in my flint and steel experience, blowing on a small flame blows it out. Blowing on a small ember makes it burn hotter. How do you know you're not just getting it stoked up for when the powder comes down?

I though the blowing was just to keep the fouling soft for those who were lube challenged.

My take on that is that there is little for the ember to ignite in the first place. So the flare up would help exhaust it fuel supply. Then there's the moisture from one's breath. As we all know, fouling is like a sponge when it comes to extractung moisture from its enviroment.

Just :m2c:

 

[Thamaz]

How do you know you're not just getting it stoked up for when the powder comes down?

I dont know!
If I did there would be no need for this discussion.

As there is others sharing part of my filosofy on this topic i might seem nagging.
My thougts are these:
Blowing charges an ember with oxygen and makes it deplete its fuel supply, the moist of the breath helpes cool/wet the possible ember.
IF an ember suvives and gets stoked up due to this process I

 

[musketman]

It's a little late, but I'm going to move this thread to the general muzzleloading section, it is not smoothbore in general...

 

[musketman]

It's a little late, but I'm going to move this thread to the general muzzleloading section, it is not smoothbore in general...

See, I said I was going to move it, that didn't hurt a bit...

Blowing down the barrel eh? :hmm:

This can be done safely with a rubber hose that will fit in the bore somewhat snug, this way you don't have to stick your face over the muzzle... :hmm: :winking:

 

[more powder]

Well didn,t some English general say look to your gun but don,t let your gun look at you.Ilike that saying,might of been general Musketman that said it.Blowing down the barrel does softing the crud we do it all the time when shooting breech loading back powder guns.

 

[jh2oman]

I have enjoyed this discussion as it has progressed on this forum. I posted a similar question on another forum back in the winter, and have been discussing this topic with numerous other BP shooters, including a NSSA competitor.
On this forum it seems we've discussed that impact is an unlikely source of ignition, but cook-offs from embers and defective locks are prime suspects. The question I had raised on the other forum was related specifically to the possibility of an iron or steel ramrod (or tip)creating a spark in the barrel and ingiting the charge. A "guy who knows another guy" claims the latter took a finger off due to a spark caused by a steel ramrod.
I just don't believe it -- not that he didn't take a finger off, but that the rod was the cause of the ignition. Maybe if he was hard ramming a wad-less blank charge and somehow created a steel-on-steel spark, but I just don't see it.
So, anyone -- thoughts on the steel on steel spark theory?

Regards,
JW

 

[roundball]

I have enjoyed this discussion as it has progressed on this forum. I posted a similar question on another forum back in the winter, and have been discussing this topic with numerous other BP shooters, including a NSSA competitor.
On this forum it seems we've discussed that impact is an unlikely source of ignition, but cook-offs from embers and defective locks are prime suspects. The question I had raised on the other forum was related specifically to the possibility of an iron or steel ramrod (or tip)creating a spark in the barrel and ingiting the charge. A "guy who knows another guy" claims the latter took a finger off due to a spark caused by a steel ramrod.
I just don't believe it -- not that he didn't take a finger off, but that the rod was the cause of the ignition. Maybe if he was hard ramming a wad-less blank charge and somehow created a steel-on-steel spark, but I just don't see it.
So, anyone -- thoughts on the steel on steel spark theory?

Regards,
JW

I agree with you...I don't believe that scenario would produce a spark...very skeptical of stories like these.

IMO, I sometimes wonder if they're cover-ups for screw-ups...or if the individual literally didn't know what happend and in speculating, a couple of other shooters...who weren't there and have less knowledge of the event than the originator did...chime in with agreement and the cause becomes finalized.
:shocking:

 

[gordy]

My opinion is that the possibillity of a hot ember touching off the new charge of powder is a real concern.As for compressing the ball /projectile down hard enough on the powder to cause it to detonate is very unlikely.I have never seen a documented case of this happening.

 

[TexiKan]

YES, we have a documented incident of a charge going off while ramming the ball down a muzzleloading barrel! Unlike the blowing down the barrel stories, our club has had a situation where a current member did this. I would say it happened at least ten years or more ago at our range. I was not there that particular day, but the shooter did write "Muzzle Blasts" about it.

We are not sure what set off the charge, but in the process of ramming the ball down onto the powder, the gun discharged and the ball and ramrod?) went through his hand. He was rushed to the hospital and plastic surgery was required to repair his hand.

This member is a good shot and was Range Master at one time, so he knows safety. (He is also a lawyer) I should ask him his opinion on what happened as the only conclusions were guesstimates. To this day, a hole in the range roof remains.

TexiKan
--------------------

If you continue to do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.

 

[roundball]

YES, we have a documented incident of a charge going off while ramming the ball down a muzzleloading barrel! Unlike the blowing down the barrel stories, our club has had a situation where a current member did this. I would say it happened at least ten years or more ago at our range. I was not there that particular day, but the shooter did write "Muzzle Blasts" about it.

We are not sure what set off the charge, but in the process of ramming the ball down onto the powder, the gun discharged and the ball and ramrod?) went through his hand. He was rushed to the hospital and plastic surgery was required to repair his hand.

This member is a good shot and was Range Master at one time, so he knows safety. (He is also a lawyer) I should ask him his opinion on what happened as the only conclusions were guesstimates. To this day, a hole in the range roof remains.

TexiKan
--------------------

If you continue to do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.

That's puzzling...I assume from it going through his hand it was a fairly small diameter, like a standard 3/8" ramrod...and that makes me wonder how in the world somebody can get enough pressure by simply pushing on the end of a tiny 3/8" diameter cylinder like a ramrod...I'm a big guy with huge strong meaty hands and wince when I put a lot of pressure on the end of a skinny little ramrod.

At the range, I use range rods with large round wooden balls on top and press til I hear the powder crunch...for hunting I use brass rods and fold a glove over the top to keep from hurting my hand.

Don't know how somebody could apply that kind of pressure...I know I couldn't
:shocking:

 

[sse]

I wonder if the rifle had percussion ignition and it was capped......???!!!

Regards, sse

 

[TexiKan]

...I assume from it going through his hand it was a fairly small diameter, like a standard 3/8" ramrod...and that makes me wonder how in the world somebody can get enough pressure by simply pushing on the end of a tiny 3/8" diameter cylinder like a ramrod..

As I recall, the primary damage to his hand was in the flesh part behind his thumb and between the lower part of the first finger. Now, if all of you go through the motion of ramming a ball down, and you are grasping it around the the ramrod......as you push down and reach the bottom, you may continue pushing and turn your hand to that portion just before you place your whole hand over it. Some will work the load down with thumb and forefinger. If the combination ball and patch is tight, then a more aggressive approach would have been taken.

This member now shoots a .50 gun but I am not sure if that was the same gun he used back then.

It is very unlikely the gun was capped first prior to loading. Most folks will say they have dry balled, double balled, doubled loaded, and maybe a few would admit to shooting their ramrod out.....but accidently capping and then loading would require quite a bit of inattentivness!

TexiKan
_____________

If you continue to do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.

 

[roundball]

".....but accidently capping and then loading would require quite a bit of inattentivness!

Tex, let me first qualify this by saying I'm not 'debating' this, just puzzleling over it...

Regarding inattentiveness...I think that's exactly the sort of thing that may come into play on some of these unusual incidents...I wonder if that's why the stories are so intriguing because most people set aside the things that may very well have caused the incident as being so obvious they couldn't possibly have happened to cause it, etc.

Just as a matter of general conversation, I'll say that accidentially capping a percussion 'out of sequence' so-to-speak, is really no different than dry balling, double charging, double balling, shooting a ramrod down range, etc, etc...all of those are 'out of sequence' lapses of concentration.

Since I've gotten onto Flintlocks, I've gone to the range every Saturday morning year round except for hunting season for the past 3.5 years...I've discovered that I'm shooting so much that I've started doing some things from pure subconscious and not even thinking about them...like programmed steps...and what I've discovered is that if something disrupts the rythem of a 40 shot session, I'll occasionally find I've made a mistake.

Just a couple weeks ago as I set the rifle on it's butt to reload, something caused me to pick it back up and fiddle with the flint or the pan or something...normally an activity I do after loading the main charge...but this time, just by having the rifle back in my hands, I automatically cocked the hammer, reached for the pan primer and was about to reprime the pan when I realized the pan was still dirty with damp residue...and only then did I realize I was completely out of sequence in that reloading sequence.

If I had primed the pan, then stood the rifle down and began loading it...it would have been on full cock with a pan full of 4F...potentially I could have jarred it enough to drop the hammer and I would have had an accidental discharge...and I never would have known or remembered that I had inadvertently primed the pan completely out of sequence, would have come to some other conclusion that caused the AD...ie: I rammed the ball to hard or something.

So my only point was:...$#@&% happens...and IMHO I'm not sure we always even know that we might have done something unconsciously that might have caused it...
eace:

 

[gordy]

Correct me if I misunderstood what You said in Your first post! I'm certainly not saying there never was, or will be muzzleloaders going off with the rod downbore,My point is that I know of no "documented" case of the main charge going off because of extreme preasure excerted by hand on the ramrod.From Your post it sounds as if it never was determined that preasure on the charge was the cause.There were, and possibly still are, people that thrust their steel/brass ramrods down on the seated charge ,not once but several times to compact the charge for better ignition???If percussion sensitive black powder were going to fire from compression it would be when that rod were thrust downbore with severe force.Even taking this type of loading practice into the quest there is no case of impact ignition that I "know" of.If anyone knows of an instance please tell us.

 

[TexiKan]

Actually, I was bringing up our club incident in response to the original question:

"Has anyone had the main powder charge discharge while seating a (ball/shot) with your ramrod."

No, we nor the shooter could prove the rifle went off BECAUSE of the extreme pressure....we just know it did and continue to be baffled as to the cause. As I said in my post, a reason is only a guestimate.

Yes, Roundball, strange things can happen! I am not saying it couldn't, but the liklihood of capping first has been less remote that the other factors. Also, the liklihood of a piece of the busted cap remaining on the nipple would have been higher, too. Had that been the case, a documented hammer down would have been an excellent reason to suspect that particular factor as a cause. To my knowledge, the hammer was still in half cock.

TexiKan
________________

If you continue to do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.