American Pioneer Powder

[Omahkapi'si]

50 yds Goex

50 yds Triple 7 Sub


I'm ok with either, just happy to shoot....

 

[Ninering62]

I have used 777 and Pyrodex and really did not see any difference. But I do prefer the Holy Black, just because.

I have a few lbs of T7fff that I used in my sidelock & for a cheap plinking load in my Accura V2. I've even used it in my Pedersoli 21ga. Its farrrrrr better powder than any real black IMO. I don't have any probs or complaints with it. But I never want anything even close to what Pyrodex is in any more of my muzzleloaders, ever.

 

[nkbj]

Some rifled muskets have a convoluted path between the nipple and the bore that includes a constriction that APP doesn't always settle into the way you'd like. I experienced failures to ignite and hang fires in one musket. I could improve the ignition path (and I still may) but black is working OK.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Found 2 jugs after moving maybe 15 years old

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

American Pioneer Powder has been in business for nearly 20 years. APP is the spinoff of the Pyrodex pellet patent infringement lawsuit by Hodgdon against Clean Shot. APP manufactured Goex Pinnacle and Black MZ powders.

The company continues to manufacture and sell APP and Jim Shockey's Gold powders. They also manufacture the Shooters World Multi-Purpose Black 3F.

Yep, it's fashionable for some to badmouth APP powders. Most of the detractors have never used the stuff.

I do agree with you to a point. But also you have to take into account the folks that have used it and don’t like it. I have used APP from the Sonoran desert to the hot steamy Caribbean, to frozen woods of northern Minnesota! On my hay day I was shooting 5000 RB a years, now about half, I can tell you that APP might be a good sub, but IT IS NOT as reliable or consistent as black powder. And I am not the type to diminish subs, hell, I lived in a country where BP was treated as nuclear weapons and subs as sugar! I tried everything, AAP, 777, pyrojunk P, Rs, CTg and so on but BP is hard to beat, if you can get the real deal do it. The 100 fps or so that you may gain won’t matter if the go doesn’t go off!! Also, BP does not seems to loose power after being exposed to air, I remember a canister of APP I used after 11 months of being opened, the shots reminded me of Uncle Joe! YMMV, and after all is one’s money, do as you think is reasonable with it!

 

[Mulebrain]

I guarantee American Pioneers didn't use it.

To me, just another unneeded black powder substitute

 

[brewer12345]

I know anything but real black gets pooped on here, but...

I liked Black MZ and grabbed a bunch of it before it disappeared. It is slightly less energetic than real black, but it shoots relatively clean and I get very good accuracy from it. It ignites almost as readily as real black. I have happily shot it in rifles and will continue to do so, but it especially shines in revolvers because of the reduced fouling. Clean up is easy. I keep real black around and use it, but when I run out of Black MZ I will be in the market for APP.

Only real beef is that it won't work in a flinter, but since I am a percussion enthusiast I don't really care.

 

[user 48702]

I guarantee American Pioneers didn't use it.

To me, just another unneeded black powder substitute

One can also guarantee the American Pioneers didn't buy 70-80% finished kits, use electric powered lathes, mills, drills, bandsaws and Dremels. They also didn't use off the shelf stains, finishes, parts or modern files, much of which was sourced on their laptop or smartphone. Black powder substitutes are just another workaround to achieve a fairly close synthetic result.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I think nkbj may have a good point about the flame path and reliability. After awhile I started putting a couple of shots of real black 4F from my pan charger in the tube before loading the main APP charge and reliability improved significantly. I was shooting a Lyman Deerstalker carbine and I think I remember hearing the Lyman's have a quirky powder chamber, although I think performance was the same in my T/C WMC.

 

[user 48702]

I know anything but real black gets pooped on here, but...

I liked Black MZ and grabbed a bunch of it before it disappeared. It is slightly less energetic than real black, but it shoots relatively clean and I get very good accuracy from it. It ignites almost as readily as real black. I have happily shot it in rifles and will continue to do so, but it especially shines in revolvers because of the reduced fouling. Clean up is easy. I keep real black around and use it, but when I run out of Black MZ I will be in the market for APP.

Only real beef is that it won't work in a flinter, but since I am a percussion enthusiast I don't really care.

Wish I had found out about Black MZ sooner than I did, I just kept seeing post about Sportsman's selling it for $10 lb. When I found out a lot of SASS Shooters were using it and reported less fouling and it required no lube, I had to try it. Sad to say, I only bought 5 lbs to try and offset the hazmat charge, then Alliant discontinued it. I've used it in cap and ball and percussion rifles, but where it shines is in cartridge guns. Not supposed to mention it here, but I've ran it through .32WCF through .45-70 Govt and it shines, ballistics are not far off from black, and plenty of smoke. Did miss that farty rotten egg smell you get from BP.

 

[brewer12345]

Wish I had found out about Black MZ sooner than I did, I just kept seeing post about Sportsman's selling it for $10 lb. When I found out a lot of SASS Shooters were using it and reported less fouling and it required no lube, I had to try it. Sad to say, I only bought 5 lbs to try and offset the hazmat charge, then Alliant discontinued it. I've used it in cap and ball and percussion rifles, but where it shines is in cartridge guns. Not supposed to mention it here, but I've ran it through .32WCF through .45-70 Govt and it shines, ballistics are not far off from black, and plenty of smoke. Did miss that farty rotten egg smell you get from BP.

Heck, I shot my first two ML deer using Black MZ. Nothing wrong with it as a powder, IMO.

 

[BoomStick]

I tried Pioneer Powder in my T/C Renegade and Hawken flintlocks. I had a lot of trouble getting it to ignite. When it did go off it produced good accuracy and fairly easy clean-up, but just wasn't reliable enough for me to stick with it. I like the real stuff best, but also think it's nice to have alternatives (as long as I can get them to work.)

 

[toot]

Malarly. It ain't made from orange peels. It's synthesized ascorbic acid. Think vitamin C.

Used all the APP powders, including JSG, which came out about 2005. Yep, those powders sometimes clump. Keep the lid tight and break up the clumps

Here are the first seven rounds from my re-worked by Mr, Hoyt, .54 caliber Navy Arms rifle using patched round balls. Distance is 50 yards . This is the best five round group i ever fired from an unscoped conventional muzzleloader.

Forgot the powder that day. The powder was from a can of Black MZ opened years ago and stored in the tractor shed at the range.

i have enough Black MZ powder at $10.00 per pound to last for 15 years.

now that group is / has Baragan rites!!!

 

[Newtire]

unless they have changed their granulation it is pretty bulky. may have trouble in the ROA.
and don't believe all you hear about the crud ring. if i remember right it does build one and it is very hard. ymmv

I have heard that American Pioneer is the same as Black MZ but have never used American Pioneer myself, so can’t comment on it but I will say this about these that I have actually personally used:

I believed all the hype that was going around and in actual early advertisements about Pyrodex. It said that Pyrodex was less corrosive than real black. This proved to be untrue as it was far worse than real BP. I had good luck with it being consistent but stopped using it due to its corrosive qualities.

Black MZ worked the best for me and use it exclusively in everything except flintlock guns. All of this that I’ve used did look pretty ugly as far as grain size went. It seems odd to me that it works so well given it’s rather large, uneven appearance. In addition, the stuff I bought did tend to clump together but a couple of shakes broke it up again back to its normal state of ugliness. It still fired off like before. Velocity spread was about the same as with 2f black but was more consistent in anything as big or bigger than .490” round ball size. No deterioration or velocity loss when stored over a couple years time. No crud ring and no apparent tendency to rust things when cleaned normally. No accumulation shot to shot. Easy clean up. Lots of smoke but no rotten egg smell. Pretty harsh smell that probably isn’t good to breathe in.

Triple 7 (777) indeed left a very hard, crud ring that made it real difficult to get the ball down past without wiping after every 2nd shot. No luck trying to use it in flintlock guns. Have heard that it deteriorates when left loaded for a year by a guy who velocity tested it in some revolvers. (Hovey Smith).

Of the real black powders, Swiss has been the cleanest but no velocity comparisons done. Only real black that was bad was Elephant Brand. Wouldn’t use it again ever unless it was the only powder I could get.

 

[Okie Hog]

now that group is / has Baragan rites!!!

Yep, and fired without swabbing.

I have heard that American Pioneer is the same as Black MZ

It contains the same ingredients, but shuffling of those ingredients makes Black MZ considerably more powerful than APP.

Black MZ is considerably more powerful than Goex. Black MZ works best when heavily compressed.

 

[Okie Hog]

Tests of Black MZ Powder and Patched Round Balls Fired From Round Ball Rifles:

TraditionalMLdata5 - NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING (namlhunt.com)

 

[brewer12345]

The lots of smoke thing is very true. Last year I shot a 110 grain charge of black mz at a deer and it ran directly away from me after I fired. Since it was on the other side of the smoke cloud, it was as if the deer disappeared.

 

[J. Paul]

I'm hearing & reading two diff reviews about the APP being very moisture sensitive & some say its not moisture sensitive. That would make me think that it prob is moisture sensitive in high heat & humidity regions & it does fine in dryer little humidity areas. I'm in Fl so I'm gonna re-evaluate here a lil more & maybe get a lb & try it out here & see how it does. Glad i got to read everyone's input on this powder. Thanks

In northeastern Colorado I had Pyrodex turn gray in color and ignite very poorly after 3 years after opened. I had been gifted some and tried a couple dozen shots then went back black.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I have heard that American Pioneer is the same as Black MZ but have never used American Pioneer myself, so can’t comment on it but I will say this about these that I have actually personally used:

I believed all the hype that was going around and in actual early advertisements about Pyrodex. It said that Pyrodex was less corrosive than real black. This proved to be untrue as it was far worse than real BP. I had good luck with it being consistent but stopped using it due to its corrosive qualities.

Black MZ worked the best for me and use it exclusively in everything except flintlock guns. All of this that I’ve used did look pretty ugly as far as grain size went. It seems odd to me that it works so well given it’s rather large, uneven appearance. In addition, the stuff I bought did tend to clump together but a couple of shakes broke it up again back to its normal state of ugliness. It still fired off like before. Velocity spread was about the same as with 2f black but was more consistent in anything as big or bigger than .490” round ball size. No deterioration or velocity loss when stored over a couple years time. No crud ring and no apparent tendency to rust things when cleaned normally. No accumulation shot to shot. Easy clean up. Lots of smoke but no rotten egg smell. Pretty harsh smell that probably isn’t good to breathe in.

Triple 7 (777) indeed left a very hard, crud ring that made it real difficult to get the ball down past without wiping after every 2nd shot. No luck trying to use it in flintlock guns. Have heard that it deteriorates when left loaded for a year by a guy who velocity tested it in some revolvers. (Hovey Smith).

Of the real black powders, Swiss has been the cleanest but no velocity comparisons done. Only real black that was bad was Elephant Brand. Wouldn’t use it again ever unless it was the only powder I could get.

Great post, great information. Thank you, Bill

 

[Nor'Easter]

Yep, and fired without swabbing.



It contains the same ingredients, but shuffling of those ingredients makes Black MZ considerably more powerful than APP.

Black MZ is considerably more powerful than Goex. Black MZ works best when heavily compressed.

Hopefully not a stupid question, but when you say "heavily compressed" do you mean seating the ball hard enough to hear the powder 'crunch' or just short of that? Bill