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1803 Harper's Ferry could fill the bill, which rifle was not carried by L&C expedition because it wasn't ready, but some of the locks were. (Supposedly, the rifles they carried were ones made in Pennsylvania for some earlier expedition against the Spanish in Florida...it's late, and my memory is not up to snuff.)

Richard/Grumpa
 
Hi,
If you really want your impression to represent a trapper commonly encountered during 1800-1840 then don't get too fascinated by Hawken rifles. Certainly some trappers probably had Hawken-made guns but many more likely carried long rifles or surplus military guns. Although the trapper did not make his gun, all guns during that era were hand made and they looked it. Jim Kibler is producing a new kit for an early Lancaster rifle. His kits are CNC engineered so the parts fit is as close to hand fit as possible and what is left for you is final sanding,staining, and finishing. The result will be a very fine authentic rifle. Tip Curtis and TVM can also supply appropriate finished and kit guns for relatively low prices.

dave
 
One post showed the amount of guns taken from ”˜Texas Freebooters’ rifles fusils and a Brown Bess were in the mix.

I believe some logic and common sense are appropriate in these discussions. I have been stomped on for saying that in the past as some want documentation for everything. We still disagree.
What 10gun said is logical. If a young feller left the east to seek adventure west of big muddy, it is logical he would carry a long arm for hunting and protection. It might be an old Brown Bess, fowler or even a rifle. If later issued a gun by a trade company he signed on with that gun he brought from the east did not evaporate. It went somewhere and someone used it. In it's life it could have traveled from the east coast to old Mexico. That's logic.
 
I don’t see much support for “surplus military guns” being used by civilians. They belonged to the government. There are not a lot of M16s in civilian hands today. 1800-1850 is not 1950-1970 when there was a flood of post war surplus military guns being sold to civilians.

Mountain men were professionals. Not young men on their own hook heading to the mountains with whatever they had.

I believe most of the arguments about guns that should be acceptable are based primarily on what resides in a fella’s gunrack as opposed to actual research.

There are many hundreds of examples of actual guns that went west during this period. It’s not a big unknown that requires us to guess.
 
It’s also helpful to keep in mind the AMM WANT to be exclusive. It’s only for the rabid, “this is my life mission” types with $10,000 and thousands of hours to spend on their hobby.

I don’t have the time or money, but can build myself an appropriate gun they’d like. I don’t feel any desire or need to invest in developing expertise in 7 related skill sets.
 
I don’t see much support for “surplus military guns” being used by civilians. They belonged to the government.

During the AWI calls for volunteers often required the men bring their own muskets and other items. Those may, or may not, have been military style.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
I don’t see much support for “surplus military guns” being used by civilians. They belonged to the government.

During the AWI calls for volunteers often required the men bring their own muskets and other items. Those may, or may not, have been military style.

They were certainly not Brown Besses except for those liberated by the Sons of Liberty. Many accounts by generals including Washington lamented the odd variety of nearly non-working guns the militia men brought with them.
 
Rich Pierce said:
I don’t see much support for “surplus military guns” being used by civilians. They belonged to the government. There are not a lot of M16s in civilian hands today. 1800-1850 is not 1950-1970 when there was a flood of post war surplus military guns being sold to civilians.

Depends on what and where, I suspect. Post-Revolution I think that the government dumped a bunch of surplus non-standardized arms - the old Besses, CoS muskets (if any had survived), refurbished Dutch/Liege muskets, Spanish, and German muskets that had equipped the Continental Army - and just kept the Charlesvilles. So I wouldn't be surprised to see old military non-French weapons or components thereof show up along the frontier from approximately 1785 maybe up to the first decade of the 19th century.

I would be surprised if they made it into the Rocky Mountains in any numbers, though. Too many better choices available than a heavy old weapon that been declared surplus a generation before.

In any case, getting a replica of such a gun today would be as difficult as getting a basic trade rifle, if not more so. So why bother?


I believe most of the arguments about guns that should be acceptable are based primarily on what resides in a fella’s gunrack as opposed to actual research.

There are many hundreds of examples of actual guns that went west during this period. It’s not a big unknown that requires us to guess.


Yep. There is also the issue that reenacting and researching history are two different endeavors with their own separate priorities, goals, and methods. I suspect that an awful lot of the arguments here would cease if folks on both sides would distinguish between the two.
 
Rich Pierce said:
I don’t see much support for “surplus military guns” being used by civilians.

There are many hundreds of examples of actual guns that went west during this period. It’s not a big unknown that requires us to guess.

I agree with Rich's comments above. The government never had surplus arms in any significant number until after the Mexican-American War and the largest surplus, of course, following the Civil War.

George Moller's series of books on American Military Shoulder Arms are an excellent source of information on US military small arms.

In the 1790's after the defeat of General St. Claire and his army in Ohio by Indians, the government created a new army and had to procure new arms for it. The government ordered 3000 musket locks and 3000 rifle locks from the Ketlands in England to use on many of these new arms. These arms were kept in government arsenals until they were needed. They were typically returned to the arsenals after campaigns to be repaired and kept in stores.

The next big surge in the size of the army was the War of 1812. The US Government did not have a standing army of any meaningful size until that time. All the arms in the arsenals were issued and new arms ordered.

In Volume III of the series mentioned above, Moller states, "At the time of the adoption of the Model 1842 percussion musket in the early spring of 1842, there were slightly fewer than 1 million flintlock muskets in federal repositories, in the hands of the armed forces, and in the possession of the individual states."

Between the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War, very few military arms entered the civilian market.

In 1842, the Secretary of War directed an inspection and classification of the military arms made prior to 1832. There were four classifications. The first two identified flintlock muskets suitable for conversion to percussion. The third identified arms made between 1812 and 1820 not suitable for conversion but still may be used in cases of emergency. The fourth classification identified all arms made prior to 1812, all unserviceable arms made during later periods and all damaged arms not worthy of repair. They were to be declared surplus and available for sale and amounted to 108,821 arms.

The first of these arms to be sold as surplus were 65,173 flintlock muskets sold at prices ranging from $0.21 to $3.00 each by 1848.

The small number of documented instances of military arms being sold to civilians prior to the 1840's reinforces Rich's point. They are isolated instances such as Lewis and Clark disposing of arms carried by the Corp by auction after returning to St. Louis. This action suggests that they were so worn and/or damaged that it wasn't worth the expense to transport them back east to the arsenals they came from.

To the other point of Rich's that I included in the quote above, I highly recommend two books published by Track of the Wolf for those on a tight budget. Those are For Trade and Treaty and Rifles of the American Indians by Ryan Gale et. al.

If you can afford them, two other excellent books are Firearms of the Fur Trade by James A. Hanson and Great Gunmakers for the Early West by James D. Gordon.
 
Since no one has mentioned it: Ryan Gale et al's Rifles of the American Indians is fairly inexpensive and a good introduction to the non-Hawken rifles used out west. I'd post a link but Track's website is down just now.

Edited to add: Mtn Meek post as I was writing this!
 
While some in the AMM are "snobish types" I have two good friends who are AMM and they don't have $10,000 in their gear and are quite friendly. Picky yes, snobish -not all. :idunno: :idunno:
 
A rifle that was very prominent during the Fur Tade era 1820 to 1840 was the J.J Henry Lancaster they were Late Lancaster rifles with a four-piece patch box and a single trigger although this is not written stone a southern rifle would do just as well.
 
Good points Dave Person. I guess no one from the AMM has seen fit to comment on this discussion. There are several groups throughout the U.S. It would be nice for us all to hear from them.

Great books and articles referenced. Thanks!
 
ohio ramrod said:
While some in the AMM are "snobish types" I have two good friends who are AMM and they don't have $10,000 in their gear and are quite friendly. Picky yes, snobish -not all. :idunno: :idunno:

Ohio, please ask your AMM friends their views on what would be accepted in their camps. Thank you! Glen
 
ohio ramrod said:
While some in the AMM are "snobish types" I have two good friends who are AMM and they don't have $10,000 in their gear and are quite friendly. Picky yes, snobish -not all. :idunno: :idunno:

Picky and with strict rules.
I recall, some years back at Friendship a group of AMM types were camped on the primitive side during a spring shoot. The creek was up and several of them decided to use their canoe in it. The canoe overturned dumping them all in the water. These guys were immediately expelled from AMM membership because, technically, they had taken a bath.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
Picky and with strict rules.
I recall, some years back at Friendship a group of AMM types were camped on the primitive side during a spring shoot. The creek was up and several of them decided to use their canoe in it. The canoe overturned dumping them all in the water. These guys were immediately expelled from AMM membership because, technically, they had taken a bath.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
 
I would as k Feather if I new how to get hold of him, as for Kari, I only run into him about ounce every three years at an Eastern. His email isn't working now and I don't know how to get hold of him other than going to Finland. Yes there are several AMM in Europe.
 
Correct...If your not of the spirt, you don't
belong...simple. I have to wonder, how many
of the commenters are mambers of The AMM.....
 
And can Speeel? :rotf:

To each their own no one is better than the others. Good way for the anti gunners to separate all us gun owners.

Do not want to comply to the AMM rules don't join.

I actually like some that can maintain that strict structure to keep our heritage alive. I give them hats off and not ridicule. :hatsoff:
 

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