American Mountain Men

[Alaskan Woodsman]

I've been studying the AMM sites a good bit. Their dedication to the old arts and methods with regard to "how it was" is very interesting to me. AMM indicates they use flintlock rifles in their shoots, camps and pursuits.

I do not own a flintlock but do have a T/C Hawken since 1978 and have enjoyed it immensely since then. After 29 years of public service (and income) as a wild land firefighter for many summers I am now free to pursue my dream of attending various Rendezvous both here in Alaska and elsewhere maybe.

What kind or brand of flintlock would be acceptable in an AMM camp should I be lucky enough to be invited?

Understand that semi retired forester/biologists don't have the income stroke that retired engineers/doctors have, please advise.

I've been looking at the Lyman GPR but don't know if they and the production guns would be acceptable.

I'd like an early GPR or Hawken gun in flintlock that would be 32" to 36" long to emulate the Ashley Days 1823 to 1840 era and to shoot targets and game with too like I've done with my 1:48 .50 caliber TC for many years.

I'll be getting .54 GM TC 1:66 drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. That gun fits me well and then I'd have a real RB gun.

AMM men please let me know! Thank you!

 

[Snakebite]

I would think a TVM Lancaster might fit the bill, I have a "Late" Lancaster and I think they are a fair price.

For further guidance, just contact the AMM off their website. I'm sure they'd be glad to let you know may be and may not be acceptable.

 

[Black Hand]

It is unlikely that any gun purchased off the shelf will pass muster. Find/build a flintlock NW gun to get started, as these were available and are far less expensive than a period-correct rifle. Hawkens, despite all the hype and Hollywood, made their entrance towards the end of the Fur Trade (Mountain Man) era and were not common.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Do they post pictures of their shoots? That will let you know what they allow. I should think a half-stocked plains rifle in flint would work just fine, factory or semi-custom.

LD

 

[Black Hand]

1. Must have a full set of hand-cut and -sewn clothing and handmade accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the 1800-40 period and be of a type which would have been seen on men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets, and other accoutrements that would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need not be handmade, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today.
http://americanmountainmen.org/membership/requirements/

Pretty much eliminates any production gun that can be purchased today....

 

[Tom Compton]

Mountain Men were not wealthy and used what they brung which could be grandpa’s fowler. I’m of the opinion smaller bores made the journey and were used till they could acquire newer/ largerbore/both.

IMO the Following should be good for the era

Brown Bess
NW Trade Gun
1803 Springfield
Lyman GPR
Southern Mountain Rifle
Early and late Virginia
Jaeger
Plus many more.

 

[dragnetbill]

Looking over their requirements for membership I think this may be the hardest one to achieve.

16. Must have at least three full years of membership in the AMM.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Mountain Men were not wealthy and used what they brung which could be grandpa’s fowler.

I have been put down countless times for voicing that very same opinion. Methinks, during the post-Rev War period there would have been many Brown Besses and/or Charlyvilles in the hands of those leaving the east to seek adventure and fortune in the mountains west of big muddy. But, the argument is many/most of these men signed on with a large trade company and were issued their rifles or smoothies. Others blanch at the thought of a mountain man carrying anything other than a true Hawken. I'm still in yer camp on wat they brought with them.

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

I greatly appreciate these responses. I have looked at the requirements previously posted on their website, looked at their guns in pictures etc. and hope to gather insight as time goes on.

I think I'll continue this journey of identification and see where it leads. I don't happen to be one that is much interested in building a muzzleloader. I don't think everyone that went west with the Ashley crew or with the L & C expedition of discovery built their own guns. I'm sure they worked on them though.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I'm in the camp of the Rifleman1776 and 40Flint. People would have used what they brought or if they were supplied with a gun from the company, the company supplied gun would have been the cheapest firearm available.

 

[Tom Compton]

Yea, snooty know it alls think their opinions are the only valid ones. That’s why I do VERY little Rendevouz or re-enacting.

By the way I guess Ashley, HBC and L&C only issued J&S Hawkens before the per-suction era. Oh that’s right the fur companies didn’t “issue” guns, they sold guns to those without one like they did on traps and such - on credit.

Then they complain about declines participation.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yes, 40, methinks that often the AMM is it's own worst enemy. I have known several. Some are so extreme in their views as to prohibit attendees from wearing underwear. Many others are nice people interested in preserving that slice of American history correctly (as they believe it to have been). I was once invited to join but was declined because I bathe more than once a year. :wink:

 

[F.G. Ford]

Looking back on my college years, and having lived in Lower Canada for all my life at that time ( I live in Upper Canada now )I spent a good time living out doors, spending most of the nights in the dark, no washroom or facilities like kitchens ( I drank a little, a fair amount of shine and slept under cars and trucks in case of rain, for flintlock, I had an old flint lighter to start fires)
I foraged a lot for food, but mostly ate bar-B-qued food from a local Harvey Burger place near by. And these lands were amidst of the lands of the Hudson Bay Trading Co. land claims.
This back ground would help me qualify for the AMM team. You think?
We must be creative in our application for membership in these lofty associations.
Fred

 

[Martino23]

I think it is interesting that you can subscribe to their publication as a non member. That might be a way to learn more information.

I believe you have to be "invited" to join, and basically, you get a "sponsor" or mentor to help you get your kit together. They could provide info on what is acceptable or not.

However, I must point out that there are plenty of rendezvous/historical events to attend without being a member of the AMM.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to join the AMM someday, but I am not sure I could put up with the minutia required to join. Frankly, I don't and won't have time for it until I am fully retired.

I go to rendezvous to relax and enjoy myself. I think that is the goal of most folks as well. While I am always trying to improve my outfit, I realize that most folks have a limited amount of money to spend on this hobby, and I don't think they should be looked down upon when they are doing the best they can.

 

[tenngun]

Mountain Men were not wealthy and used what they brung which could be grandpa’s fowler.

I have been put down countless times for voicing that very same opinion. Methinks, during the post-Rev War period there would have been many Brown Besses and/or Charlyvilles in the hands of those leaving the east to seek adventure and fortune in the mountains west of big muddy. But, the argument is many/most of these men signed on with a large trade company and were issued their rifles or smoothies. Others blanch at the thought of a mountain man carrying anything other than a true Hawken. I'm still in yer camp on wat they brought with them.

Most MM were employees of the fur company and were supplied with what the company had. Many had little family ties. Today we use the term ”˜red headed step child’ as some one getting second best or less. Many times mama died, daddy remarried, then daddy died and step mom remarried. The boy was raised by people he wasn’t related to. At sixteen he left home and went west with little.
Some men did bring their own guns and old ones at that. We know from museum pieces many western guns were not supplied by the companies. And just a few years after the MM era photos were taken and many early photos show Eastern rifles.
Many times a group forms that has lofty goals, but does eat itself by setting rules that represents a narrow view of a fluid situation. Most ”˜real’ MM were short term employees. They might trap for a few years, work the forts for some time, join a Santa Fe trail company, for a year or two.
AMM is a go to for a correct real life snap shot of MM life, but it only represents a microscopically small part of MM life.

 

[George]

Whenever the 'history' of the fur trappers is discussed, the trappers always seem to be automatically divided into two groups, the 'company men' or the much more romantic 'free trappers'. I suspect that is a very simplistic description of the actual situation. One other type which I've never heard mentioned is the individual operator/entrepreneur. There is some evidence that such a category existed.

Wm. Blane, "An Excursion through the United States and Canada, during the Years 1822-3 by an English Gentleman"

"Every year, expeditions set out from St. Louis or the neighbourhood, for the purpose of hunting, and obtaining skins and furs. These parties are composed of active, enterprising young men, generally to the number of twenty or thirty, and who, during an absence of two or three years. proceed either to the Rocky Mountains and the Pacific Ocean, or towards the territory of Mexico. One would suppose that few men would undertake so long an expedition, among savage Indian tribes, with the certainty of living a great part of the time upon nothing but animal food. Yet the enterprising spirit of the Americans is such, and a wild life has such charms for them, that nothing is easier than to find persons ready to join one of these parties. A Backwoodsman will propose a journey of a thousand miles, with as much sang froid, as a cockney would ride from London to Greenwich. The following is the manner in which these hunting expeditions are organized:---Some one either animated by a spirit of adventure, or by a hope, that on his return, he shall make some money by the sale of furs and skins, intimates to his friends that he wants twenty or thirty young men to form his party. He himself finds arms, ammunition, horses, presents for the Indians, and in short, every thing that is required for the general benefit of the expedition. He is to receive in return a certain portion of all the skins and furs obtained by hunting or barter. Sometimes also a small sum of money is given to each individual. These expeditions often turn out very profitable, as a gentleman of Kentucky proved last year, by clearing on his return 15,000 dollars."

If I remember my fur trapper history correctly, this was at the same time as the Ashley expedition, which was the first of the big fur companies...right?, Also, at the same time the Hawken brothers were just getting their start. I would guess the guns these small parties brought west were far and away flintlock, that they consisted of a random sampling representing most any gun available, and that what we today label "plains rifles" were still in the future. So, eastern guns, military guns, mostly civilian guns, but unlimited choices.

Spence

 

[Snakebite]

I went back and looked at some of my books.

Some references you might want to check out are the "1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade" by Rex Norman; "The Mountain Man's Sketch Book Vol One" by James Hanson and Kathryn Wilson; and "The Trade Rifle Sketch Book" by Charles Hanson III. There's also "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell which has some information about firearms and traps and tools of the mountain men. :grin:

I've known some guys in the AMM and just like any other association or group, some are good guys and some are kind of jerks. Hope you meet the first kind.

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

40 flint and Rifleman; excellent comments. I agree that many MM were taken on by outfits at first and those men earned their way for a year or two as apprentices. Backwoodsmen then and now are a prideful lot and I've suffered from that malady a time or two myself. With an attitude of "being the student" we can learn new things AND expand the knowledge we already have.

I'd for sure be the woodsman with a rifle that would join as someone with some experience and the rifle I had. I've often thought that more than one gun would be functionally appropriate given the need for self defense from people that hated his guts. I think one of guns would be a trade gun smooth bore in 20 or 28 gauge. Something that weren't too long and could function with ball and shot.

I'd be a horseman in the west and not a long hunter type back east so a shorter rifle would be what would attract me most.

The Hawkens are fascinating, then there are Lemans and there are plains rifles. Interesting study topics for winter bound muzzle loader types.

The comment on use of the 1803 Springfield rifle rings true to me also. I'm a tad leary of the steel ramrod for target work (repeated loading) but the idea of using it as the functional go to rings true too and I've seen at least one on the AMM site pics, sporting a steel ramrod. That rifle (the exact name escapes me at this time) was I believe carried by some of those on the L & C expedition. More were made in the 1820's as demand increased due to fur trade and trapping expeditions.

These topics are always fun. Spence, thanks for the quote, I saved it in my files. Much appreciated everyone.

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

Tenngun; your comments seem spot on concerning family dynamics in an era where young men could certainly have been orphaned by wars, uprisings etc., and in a position to volunteer for trapping expeditions. It was surely a different age.

Even so now we see many of our contemporary lost young men and women fooling with gang membership and this without folk taking the law into their own hands as happened throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries and acted as a deterrent.

From beavers to meth. A sad state of affairs.

Imagine too the upheaval to families that resulted from the Civil War and the many hard cased men that wandered the territories with varying cases of PTSD.

Too bad theres not another Terry Johnston to continue to depict the era.

 

[tenngun]

Not long ago a post was put on about flintlocks in the 1850s. One post showed the amount of guns taken from ”˜Texas Freebooters’ rifles fusils and a Brown Bess were in the mix.
One can’t go wrong with a Pennsylvania trade rifle such as the Henry ”˜English style’ rifle, or one of the other contracted builders. Flint would be your go to, but we know that caps were being used by 1830. Although no dyed in the capote modern MM would carry one.
When you join a group you have to follow those rules, to be historically correct you don’t have to be as narrow.