Alternatives for Stock Stains

[Cruzatte]

This thread prompted my question. Is there any good reason why some one would choose not to use a hardware store brand of oil based wood stain like Minwax Wood Stain or Deft? I've never heard of or seen it done, most builders of my acquaintance preferring to use Wahkon Bay or Laurel Mountain Forge products. There must be some good reason but I can't think of what it might be, wood being wood. But maybe gun stocks are different than say boxes and cabinets, spending as much time out of doors as they do. :hmm:

 

[excess650]

Dyes don't muddy grain like stain can.

 

[alex efremenko]

Minwax is junk. I hesitate to use it on anything other than trim lumber. Even then there are better products.

 

[Black Hand]

Don't do it.
These hardware products are usually stain and finish in one - a single application with limited penetration is all you get. And the color isn't all that great....

 

[Cruzatte]

Good! I knew I could count on you folks to clear things up. Thanks! :hatsoff:

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You seem to need a primer on wood stains to understand the differences. Minwax and most stains sold in hardware stores are pigmented stains meaning they contain a pigment (like paint) suspended in some medium. As such, they coat the wood and color it but also obscure the grain. If your stock has figure they will obscure that figure. Dyes, like LMF, aniline, and others actually dye the wood fiber without covering over the grain. Unfortunately, there are no dyes that will not fade under intense UV light. So over the years, those stains will fade, particularly the reddish colors, if the gun is outside in sunlight a lot. Finally, there are the acid-based stains, which were commonly used by the old masters. Aqua fortis, vinegar stains, ferric nitrate (same as aqua fortis) contain acid and iron oxide. They actually oxidize the wood fiber and when the acid is driven off by heat (blushing), the residual iron oxide bonds with the wood fiber. These stains bring out curl in maple very well and never fade. However, they are mainly useful on wood with low tannin content like maple and birch. The acid will react with tannin and create a dark grey or almost black color on woods like walnut, cherry, and butternut.

dave

 

[Wes/Tex]

You can use the old chewing tobacco aged in ammonia or tar in ammonia if you feel adventurous. It's an old Dixie recipe that I've used on furniture but not gun stocks...at least not yet. It builds up and darkens with each application but only works well on the light hard woods, maple, blonde walnut, etc. You can match colors or replacement wood with it. One thing I did learn though...cockroaches will slurp the sweet sticky flavor after the ammonia odor evaporates so be careful or you'll have long ribbony lines in it that take a while to figure out! :wink: :haha: :shocked2:

 

[BrownBear]

I've used Fiebing's leather dye on a lot of small wood projects with great results. I haven't tried it on a rifle stock yet, but I'm tempted.

 

[Zonie]

As the others have said, Minwax and the other oil based "stains" don't really stain the wood.
They just paint on a layer of some sort of hardening oil with color added.

Once the first layer of oil based stain drys, it seals off the wood beneath it so adding more layers of it will add very little to the color.

This, on a wood like beech, which CVA and Traditions use, ends up making the (IMO, ugly) light tan stocks many new builders end up with.

The alcohol or water based stains on the other hand, do not seal the wood.
Because the wood is unsealed, it can absorb layer after layer of additional stain.

This allows the builder to get the darkness he/she wants and to adjust the color by adding different stains as they see fit.

For instance a alcohol or water based Walnut stain can be used in several layers to get close to the right darkness and then a layer of Mahogany stain can be added to get the red tones many of the old original rifles had.

If someone goes too far with one of these alcohol or water based stains they can (as a last resort) use bleach to remove most of the color.

I don't recommend doing that but it is possible and it is something that cannot be done at all if a oil based stain was used.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You seem to need a primer on wood stains to understand the differences. Minwax and most stains sold in hardware stores are pigmented stains meaning they contain a pigment (like paint) suspended in some medium. As such, they coat the wood and color it but also obscure the grain. If your stock has figure they will obscure that figure. Dyes, like LMF, aniline, and others actually dye the wood fiber without covering over the grain. Unfortunately, there are no dyes that will not fade under intense UV light. So over the years, those stains will fade, particularly the reddish colors, if the gun is outside in sunlight a lot. Finally, there are the acid-based stains, which were commonly used by the old masters. Aqua fortis, vinegar stains, ferric nitrate (same as aqua fortis) contain acid and iron oxide. They actually oxidize the wood fiber and when the acid is driven off by heat (blushing), the residual iron oxide bonds with the wood fiber. These stains bring out curl in maple very well and never fade. However, they are mainly useful on wood with low tannin content like maple and birch. The acid will react with tannin and create a dark grey or almost black color on woods like walnut, cherry, and butternut.

It always annoys me a little when folks recommend methods, stains, and finishes and don't post photos of their work. In the photos below, the first 2 guns are maple stocked stained with ferric nitrate and water solution (basically aqua fortis with iron). The third gun is maple but first painted with strong tea to add tannin and then stained with ferric nitrate. That was done to highlight figure that was indistinct. The fourth photo is of a cherry stocked gun stained with an aniline dye to look like apple. As the cherry naturally darkens it looks more and more like apple. The fifth photo shows stocks of American black walnut stained with yellow aniline dye to eliminate the ugly cold purple-brown undertone common in American walnut and make it look more like warmer English walnut. The last photo is a maple stocked gun stained with LMF Lancaster maple stain. I do not like it because it turned all the figure dark brown almost a charred black look without any chatoyance. It also dried too fast and migrated into the corners. I'll stick with water-based stains.

dave

 

[necchi]

Is there any good reason why some one would choose not to use a hardware store brand of oil based wood stain like Minwax Wood Stain or Deft?

Well because those products aren't really for fine furniture,, and that's what a rifle really is.
Minwax and Deft (while different) are both a wood finish where the end result is "water proof".
While one would think that's what's desirable in a finished gun,, I don't know too many people that dunk their guns in water,, or have them exposed to the elements like siding or a deck for years.
You already know the difference. They ain't really stain are they?
Long story short,, do you really want to show everyone your work done with a one coat finish of one part each of beeswax, turpentine and linseed oil? (because someone said it's olde timey)
Hey,, Reality?
If all you want is to show folks you "finished" or "refinished" a "good hunting rifle".
Go for it.

 

[Artificer]

I've used Fiebing's leather dye on a lot of small wood projects with great results. I haven't tried it on a rifle stock yet, but I'm tempted.

Over the last 40 plus years; I have literally used gallons of Fiebing's leather stain to stain primarily Walnut Gun stocks, though some Maple, Birch, and Beech as well. I've seen some stocks I did as long as 25 to 35 years earlier and they did not fade. Since I have to try to "match' the color of two or even three pieces of wood on many modern stocks I do, this is what has worked best for me.

However, one HAS to put at least a thinned coat of Tru Oil or other good stock finish on the wood before one uses the stain and then sand or at least abrade the top surface of the wood with Scotch Brite type finishing pads again. This first coat of oil keeps the stain from being absorbed too much by the end grain in stocks and prevents the "blotching" that is otherwise seen around the grip, the front of the Comb, etc.

With Muzzle Loading Guns, you only have one piece of wood to color and you are not trying to match the color of two or more distinctly different pieces of wood.

Gus

 

[Cruzatte]

Dave, I knew I could count on you to give me the answer I was looking for. Sometimes a guy knows what not to do, but not why. As I said, I had observed that builders used stains (Fiebing's notwithstanding) and finishing products specifically made for gun stocks, but not hardware store stains and finishes. Now I know the reasons. Thanks again.

 

[rich pierce]

I will say that Minwax has such excellent marketing that people have a hard time believing it's no good. I tried it once on a leftover piece of stock wood. Effect is like paint.

 

[Cruzatte]

I will say that Minwax has such excellent marketing that people have a hard time believing it's no good. I tried it once on a leftover piece of stock wood. Effect is like paint.

Effect is like paint. Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Minwax and others are oil base wood stains designed for interior wood work, flooring and furniture. The is a water based version of Minwax but I've never tried in on gun stocks. These products are specifically designed to stain and seal in one operation. Doubt they ever considered use in coloring gun stocks.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Keep in mind most MinWax and similar stains are excellent products but they are meant to create even color on wood that often stains very unevenly such as pine and fir. Therefore, they don't penetrate deeply and coat the surface much like thinned paint. when I did the base board trim in my shop, which was pine, I used a MinWax stain and it looks great. I top coated it with a low gloss urethane for durability.
I'll tell you a little story. My dad was an excellent wood carver and he taught me a lot from an early age. He also made excellent furniture except he was an A-1 lousy wood finisher. After putting a lot of work into a nice piece of furniture he would get impatient and throw on the quickest and easiest finish, MinWax stain and usually polyurethane on top. All his furniture ended up having the color of mud, and it was always the same color of mud. We call it Dad's mud furniture or sometimes we use the puritan phrase "it has sad colors".

dave

 

[Billnpatti]

...cockroaches will slurp the sweet sticky flavor after the ammonia odor evaporates .....

The solution to this problem is to use smoking tobacco rather than chewing tobacco. Smoking tobacco (not pipe tobacco) does not have any sugar or flavors added. If you use pipe tobacco, do not use the flavored stuff, use only the pure unscented and unflavored tobacco. Most cheap cigars will work too.

 

[Artificer]

The way I keep in mind that a stain contains paint pigment is I think of the "Redwood Stain" that used to be popular for out door wood furniture and even on the wood shingles on the sides of some houses.

Another use of a stain with pigment in it that some to many forum members will be familiar with is the stain they used on M1 stocks and handguards in the Post WWII period. This was used to both cover up blemishes when they rebuilt those rifles and to cover up the fact they used birch wood and/or make the birch wood replacement pieces "match" or look like walnut.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

As everyone said hardware store stains are not made for ml. That said I slapped it on a stock today. Why?
After the stock is shaped but not sanded I like to stain it with cheap stains. All the scratchs and flat spots pop out. When I sand the stain all off it’s ready to whisker with out having hidden scratches.
That stuff doesn’t penetrate deep so it doesn’t effect the later stain application.