.36 Colt Navy that powerful??????

[nick_1]

I thought Colen Younger was shot in the cartridge era?

 

[IT47]

Speaking of bears, many years ago after the centerfire cartridge came in to play, California had an over run of bears and the only weapon that could do the job on the skull, using a revolver, was a Walker or a Dragoon. The other revolvers of the day were wimps.

 

[nick_1]

In 1858, he claimed a tract of land in Johnson County in Kansas and a year later was elected as one of four constables in Monticello Township. This employment did not last and he took a job with Russell, Wadell and Majors Freight Company, the owners of the Pony Express and it was while driving a freight team from Missouri to Santa Fe that he encountered a Cinnamon bear and her cubs blocking the trail. Hickok dismounted and later described how he shot the bear in the head, but the bullet bounced off the bear’s skull. The bear attacked Hickok, crushing him and grabbing his arm with its mouth, but Hickok managed to draw his knife and fatally slashed the bear’s throat. He was however, badly hurt with crushed chest, shoulder and arm and was bedridden four the next four months. He was then sent to Rock Creek Station in Nebraska to work as a stable hand while recovered from his wounds.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Not a whole lot of difference between a .36 and a .38. (.357)

Actually a 36 RB is 375 dia. Bigger than a 357. Modern 38cal.
The 44m is really a 429.
44/45 RB are 451-454 -457 dia.
What a RB lacks in speed it gains in thump ability.

 

[bullshot]

It's all about shot placement. Jim Cirillo dropped 9 perps with that lousy 38sp LRN . He also won the Bianci cup. Most cops are not proficient with their service gun. And yes grizzly bears absolutely follow hunters knowing they will get a gut pile. Sometimes they get greedy and want the whole kill.

If I recall correctly Cirillo used wadcutters in his .38 SP. But its been decades since I read his book so could be mistaken

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

In Elmer Keith’s Sixguns he tells of speaking with actual Confederate veterans who spoke highly of the .36 Navy. They said they preferred roundball over conicals as they seemed to drop the enemy quicker.

So those that were actually there and used them in combat were very satisfied with their performance. Without a doubt they’re very lethal and with good shot placement would kill any man on earth efficiently.

Nothing “little” or “underpowered” about that.

 

[ligonierbill]

I think you mean F=m*a. Or are you going nuclear?

 

[nick_1]

smoky. its apparently quite decisively underpowered for bear...

 

[Eterry]

Brothers... if you have your Bibles, ( Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 13th printing), you'll see the ballistics for most CNB revolvers.

The 31 Cal, using a 50gr RB, tops out at 795 FPS, for 70 ft/lbs of energy.
I'm guessing close to a 22 LR revolver.

The 36 Cal, using a 81gr RB, tops out at 1097 FPS, for 216 ft/lbs of energy.
Using the 150gr Conical, the top FPS is 787 fps, for 206 ft/lbs of energy.
Using a RB in the 36 is similar, energy wise, to a hot (Ken Waters) load for the 32 S&W Long. The Conical is indeed similar to the 38 S&W.

The 44 Cal, using a 138gr RB, reaches 1032 FPS and delivers 326 ft/lbs of energy.
The Conical, weighing 155grs, reaches 885 FPS, and produces 269 ft/lbs of energy.
Both loads are very similar to duty loads for 38 special, but with more frontal area.

They were fantastic weapons in their day, but like the Model T Ford, there are better options today.

 

[Eterry]

In Elmer Keith’s Sixguns he tells of speaking with actual Confederate veterans who spoke highly of the .36 Navy. They said they preferred roundball over conicals as they seemed to drop the enemy quicker.

So those that were actually there and used them in combat were very satisfied with their performance. Without a doubt they’re very lethal and with good shot placement would kill any man on earth efficiently.

Nothing “little” or “underpowered” about that.

I'm a fan of most of Keith's accomplishments, but some of his writings tend to "Guild the Lily." My favorite examples were his insistence on using Only #5 lead Shot while duck hunting, #4 & #6 were useless to him, and his pass shots were always way beyond 50 yards on Waterfowl. Also his high rate of long range running heart shots.

Let's do some math.
Keith was born in 1900. If he was talking to these fine veterans at the tender age of 15, the veterans would be in the 70-80 year old range and a 50-55 year gap between the combat and reliving the past. And how many years went by before he recalled their stories on paper?
No disrespect intended, but my brother says "we all ran faster as a teen".

Here's some context.
Your warrior buddy was shot by a Cavalry Trooper's 36 Colt. He fell to the ground, you got away and survived. Your friend was taken to hospital, where he died 6 days later.
So was he killed by the 36, infection, 19th century medicinal practics, or a combination?
An old friend near 90 told me of old men telling him how lethal the S&W 22 tip-up revolvers were during the ACW. But they didn't say how long those shot lingered before dying.
Again.. most ACW soldiers were farmers or factory workers before enlisting. Most had little experience with revolvers. CNB revolvers must have seemed like Thor's Hammer to a row-crop farmer's son.

 

[SDSmlf]

Actually a 36 RB is 375 dia. Bigger than a 357. Modern 38cal.
The 44m is really a 429.
44/45 RB are 451-454 -457 dia.
What a RB lacks in speed it gains in thump ability.

Guess you have been closely following this thread.

Actually typically use .375” and .380” diameter roundballs in my 36 caliber cap and ball guns.

 

[Coinneach]

When the topic of 51 Navy effectiveness in combat comes up, I always refer back to Elmer Keith's comments. As a young boy, Keith received shooting instruction from two Civil War veterans, one from each side of the conflict. Both gentleman praised the round ball load and claimed it more effective on human targets than the then available 38 Special loads. Since both gentleman had extensive experience in the War, I will trust their judgement.

I served in Rhodesia late 1977-80, many of us carried Pistols (translated "Handguns" for you Northerners) and there were all types and calibers available in that era; although ammo was limited and not wasted on regular target practice.

My first small gat was a Beretta Brigadier in 9mm at least the ammo was plentiful (but it was pretty well lapped out barrel wise) until a few cases of old but still very good Webley Mk 6's in .455 cal were made available for anyone interested in buying one. I jumped at the chance and picked up a good condition Webley with 3 boxes of .455 ammo. After putting 6 rounds down a 25 yard range and hammering them all within the 7 ring I was happy with what I holstered in a WW2 issue webbing job.
Later I knocked a Hyena over with 1 round at around 20 yards (only paced it out roughly) and one "barbarian" badly wounded in another incident we're not allowed to mention nowadays.

I'm not into the magnums and big bang noise, the old gurns could do the job way back then and can do it now, dont under estimate them.

 

[Coinneach]

Responded to a domestic violence call once. The lady engaged her cocaine fueled, 6’2” 200# boyfriend with a Remington .44 replica. One round ball through the sternum and the top of his heart and he dropped right there. I don’t think he took another step. There was no exit wound and surprisingly little blood outside of his body. She was arrested later, tried and acquitted of all charges. In my opinion, she shouldn’t have faced any charges at all. County attorney was a glory seeking so and so.

Dont you have mangrove swamps and flat Dawgs in your neck of the woods ?
Theyre great garbage disposable environments..........

 

[Coinneach]

FWIW my ancient 1937 "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Phil Sharpe lists loading data that today would have lawyers circling like buzzards. Lots of long lost data in there such as 18 grains of 2FF behind a 158 grain bullet in a 38 Special gives 820 FPS, 26 grains of the same shove a 246 grain .44 Special bullet at 780 FPS and 28.9 grains behind a 255 grain bullet yields 790FPS in .45 Colt. Those figures can be easily applied to our Colts and Remingtons and are nothing to sneeze at ballistically. YMMV

Duly noted, thank you sir.

 

[Coinneach]

There appears to be only one surviving Calvary veteran…

My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ !

 

[Coinneach]

As a general rule when the diameter was reduced the velocity was increased in military cartridges hence the energy levels and hit capabilities increased and thus killing power.
I have a friend with 3 purple hearts and star or two from Vietnam say the 223 killed like lighting on what ever they hit.
He used every thing from the M-1 carbine to 45 cal grease gun and finally the M-16. He's killed a truck load of men so I differ to his actual experience !

We Aussies found the M16 5.56mm round deflected too easily in the "dark green J", sure it was convenient to carry but our blokes preferred the FN SLR (Self loading Rifle) in 7.62 NATO round, our pet name for it was "the elephant gun" (although our Tasmanian brothers called them "elffalant gurns".....but thats to be expected from incestuous island folk).

The SLR was inconveniently long, heavy and booted if you didnt hold it firmly, but we loved the ol girl; she was indestructable, had a "dial a death" Gas regulator to prevent stoppages as it got grubbed up with sustained fire; and was rarely a gripe when the SHTF.
When I "sojourned" in southern Africa I was happy to carry an FN (SLR) on operations, and believe me they outclassed the AK's the Terrs had.

 

[Coinneach]

Brothers... if you have your Bibles, ( Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 13th printing), you'll see the ballistics for most CNB revolvers.

The 31 Cal, using a 50gr RB, tops out at 795 FPS, for 70 ft/lbs of energy.
I'm guessing close to a 22 LR revolver.

The 36 Cal, using a 81gr RB, tops out at 1097 FPS, for 216 ft/lbs of energy.
Using the 150gr Conical, the top FPS is 787 fps, for 206 ft/lbs of energy.
Using a RB in the 36 is similar, energy wise, to a hot (Ken Waters) load for the 32 S&W Long. The Conical is indeed similar to the 38 S&W.

The 44 Cal, using a 138gr RB, reaches 1032 FPS and delivers 326 ft/lbs of energy.
The Conical, weighing 155grs, reaches 885 FPS, and produces 269 ft/lbs of energy.
Both loads are very similar to duty loads for 38 special, but with more frontal area.

They were fantastic weapons in their day, but like the Model T Ford, there are better options today

BP powder loads for each please.

 

[PastorB]

My favorite cap and ball revolver is a 1851 .36 Navy. With a moderately heavy load, it will throw a .380 round ball at just over 1100 fps. Can get around 900 fps with a 130 grain conical. Either will do the job on the intended target at appropriate range, I prefer 20 yards or less. There are accounts of Civil War calvary vets stating that they waited until being within 10 yards as a good range to engage the enemy with a revolver. I killed a fairly large 9 point buck with my .36 and a round ball at 12 yards. It was all I had, and i knew I could place the shot where it needed to go. It worked well enough, but wouldn't make it a regular practice. A .44 revolver is "more gooder" for deer sized critters.

" Cavalry". There, I fixed it. Autospell, as I use "Calvary" often on my phone. Speaking of which, the "Cavalry" may be able to save your carcass for a short time, but only "Calvary" can save your soul for eternity! I know, because on November 26th, 1994, the "Calvary" rescued me from my sin. Bullets of any caliber will only do so much good for you, but the Blood of Christ Jesus will save you forever.

 

[Whitworth]

Duly noted, thank you sir.

You're welcome

 

[cebusey]

At the time .36 was probably plenty of oomph considering all the 38 and 41 rim fires and the relative lack of resources. A small amount of lead and powder probably made good sense to a fellow without a governments budget to spend.

I have no doubt that the .36 was adequate and did the job - I do want to point out that during the fighting in the Philippines after the S.A.W. - the Army found that the 38s that they had issued lacked the umph to do the job quickly and reissued 45 colts which did the job much better